Influencing culture and mindset with Dr Jo Lukins

SUSAN MORIARTY:
Hi, I'm Susan Moriarty, acting Deputy commissioner of ATO people, and I'm here with psychologist Dr Jo Lukins, who, with over 25 years experience, is known for her work in understanding what drives individuals, teams, and organisations to reach their full potential. Well-being and preventing burnout are a priority for me, my team and executives across the Australian public service. For any leader, it is critical to help build a high-performing, supported, and engaged team. Dr Lukins is joining me from North Queensland by video chat. So, hi Jo and thank you for joining me today.

DR JO LUKINS:
Thanks for having me along Susan. Great to be here.

SUSAN MORIARTY:
So, let's kick things off on a positive note because there's been noticeable progress around mental health initiatives in the workplace. At the ATO, we're piloting a program called thriving minds, and it's a program that aims to educate, encourage and empower our people to look after their mental health. As part of the program, teams have been trialling things like shared deep focus times or no meeting windows email etiquette practices, and ways to improve their meeting time. But I'm curious Jo, are there any specific programs you've seen or implemented that work really well?

DR JO LUKINS:
Yeah, it's such a good initiative that we're now seeing an organisation Susan because I think what's happened is there's now been a much greater focus on well-being of individuals and then of course across organisations. And I think what I see is the core theme across lots of well-being programs and organisations that get delivered is, you know, the foundations often are quite similar and I have had a little bit of a look at the thriving minds program a little bit from a distance. So, I've got a sense as to what you're delivering. And I think having evidence-based programs is, is a really important part of it. And I think actually when you talk to people about well-being and what does it take to be well, most people have got a pretty good idea about what that is. And in fact if you said, you know, what are some things you'd expect to see in a well-being program, you know, people can often, you know, tell us some of the things that they would see and they'd be correct. I think the reason for the importance of it within an organisation and within a culture is because if we don't dedicate time to it, then often it's the first thing that goes, you know.

So, most people know that things like sleep and rest and like you said having windows of time when you can actually concentrate and focus is so important because each time we get interrupted, it takes a couple of minutes to get back into our work and so forth. But if we don't pay attention to the importance of well-being for ourselves, then we often discard that first and get back to other tasks. And so what I love about well-being programs is it does give staff the opportunity to focus on themselves, which is really important for every single individual. And then of course what happens is organisational culture benefits from it when our staff are doing well.

SUSAN MORIARTY:
Absolutely. And talking about burnout, and as HR professionals, we've been integral to a lot of changes occurring across the APs. When I think about things like enterprise bargaining, I think about changes to flexible work arrangements and of course APs reform. We know that many people can experience times at work where there's additional pressure and emotional exhaustion. Burnout has been widely reported by many of my colleagues, and I know at times I myself have felt this exhaustion. But what are some of the early signs and easy steps people can start taking to prevent burning out?

DR JO LUKINS:
Yeah, such a great question. And as you say, it's so prevalent, you know, people have a real understanding about what burnout is. And if I can point to a particular part of your question that's critical for all of us is you said, what are the early signs? And I think one of the best ways to manage in a life that is full, I tend to steer away from saying the word busy, I'm not a big fan of the word busy because I think just saying the word busy makes us feel a bit more stressed. But the key to it is to understand for each of us individual individually what our early warning signs are. So, what happens with burnout is you don't wake up one day and suddenly feel burnt out, it's it tends to creep up on you, it sneaks up. So, it might start with some things like and it will vary for everyone feeling a little bit irritable, feeling a little bit tired, maybe struggling to get to sleep, maybe finding that, you know, you're going home and things that are happening around work are sort of playing on your mind as you go home, you might be feeling a bit fatigued.

And then what happens is over time, if we don't do some things to look after us during those phases or we don't speak up within our organisations to help improve some of those situations, then it continues to build. And so then we go from just little signs that we're feeling a little bit stressed and we're feeling a little bit overwhelmed, which of course is a normal part of being at work from time to time to then those symptoms become more severe. So, then we start to feel like we may be, perhaps retreat into ourselves a little bit more, we might feel like we're a little bit more isolated, we might stop doing things that we would normally do, we might drop, you know, a physical activity or we might not do as much socialising and then, you know, we can get to those quite severe symptoms. So, the reason for the importance of early warning signs is the earlier that you notice it, the quicker you can do something about it. And to be honest, it's a bit easier at the front end than waiting till you get to a point of feeling really burnt out.

So, a lot of those self-care strategies that we learn and I would imagine a lot of that is covered within the well-being program that that you're rolling out as well for, for people, all of those things help. And I guess the starting point for that is for people to pay attention to, how you're going? You know, asking yourself, you know, how's my body feeling today, how's my mind feeling today, you know, am I feeling a bit frazzled? And if you are, what are some helpful things that you can (UNKNOWN), pull out of your own kit bag to look after yourself. Again, those solutions vary from individual to individual, but it's really important that we know what works for us personally and how to look after ourselves.

SUSAN MORIARTY:
Fantastic. Thanks, Jo. And it got me thinking for many of us, you know, some fantastic individualised goal setting and strategies we can adopt. But in a work sense, are there any strategies that people can adopt and incorporate into their team and in the workplace?

DR JO LUKINS:
Yeah. So, there's a range of things and I guess the nice thing when you work within a team is what's central to a team working well is effective communication. You know, communication always, you know, I work with lots of organisations and lots of teams from sporting teams, in Defence, with organisations but at its core or it doesn't matter where you're working when communication is working well within a team, you know, you can kind of solve most and most issues and challenges that come along. So, I think keeping the communication up is a really important part of that focus on how we're functioning. And certainly, if there are challenges within the workplace, which of course there are for everyone, effective communication, safe communication allows us to discuss some of those issues and work towards finding solutions. So, that all becomes really important. And I think the other thing that happens within teams that are working well is that it gives us the opportunity to be heard. And so that's one of those key things with communication, you know, I once heard the quote that to be heard is profoundly healing.

And I've always kind of hung on to that quote right throughout my career because if ever I've been feeling a bit frazzled I've gone to a team-mate, I've gone to someone and had a conversation. So, I think prioritising communication within a team is one of those really great things that you can do. And if and if I could speak more broadly, the things that I see that make teams work well is when there's trust, and there's commitment, and there's connection, and there's care within organisations as well. So, when we look after our colleagues and those around us, that really sets us up well for a team that will function well.

SUSAN MORIARTY:
Thanks Jo. And they're fantastic messages and I guess a bit of a segue way onto unfortunately there might be times where we can be involved in some difficult conversations or can be on the receiving end of possibly some negative feedback. What are some healthy strategies to deal with what we can interpret as maybe criticism and ensure that we can separate it from it feeling personal?

DR JO LUKINS:
Yeah. That's tricky, isn't it when we're humans? Because we do tend to... we get those pieces of feedback. You know, someone can give you two equivalent pieces of feedback, one more positively framed, one more negatively framed, it's like, you know, we don't even hear that the positive stuff. So, I guess the challenge that it's always challenging in those more difficult conversations and it would acknowledge that from the start. But I think one of the best ways to navigate through that is, first of all, I guess accepting that challenging conversations, getting feedback, someone telling you that you haven't done something correctly, that's all part of, you know, being an being in employment. So, it happens for all of us, we all make mistakes and it's not so much what happens to us, but it's what we do with it that's gonna be really important. So, I would say from the first step, and I guess I've really learned this from my time working with elite athletes, is that disappointment and failure if you want to use that, I'm not a big fan of the word failure but let's go with it for now.

Failure is not the opposite of success it's actually part of it. You know, to get better at what we're doing, we have to make mistakes along the way because if you don't make mistakes, you don't learn, you don't grow. So, I would rather not make a mistake than make one but when I do, I tell myself, well, obviously this life's teaching me a lesson here and I'm on the path to learning something new. So, I guess that's the first thing that I would do, is if someone's giving me feedback that I haven't done something correctly or I need to improve I understand, I try to remind myself that that's, you know, obviously, what's happening. And then what I do is I look for what, how can I get better from this information? Now, the challenge for most of us is we don't always have control on how that information is delivered to us. So, you know, in the ideal world, it would be well crafted and well constructed and so forth. And hopefully, that happens more often than not, but every now and then the delivery because sometimes for the person delivering the news, that's not always easy either.

So, people tend to often when it's not an easy conversation, you tend to want to get it over and done with and spit it out pretty quickly. So, I have empathy for those that have to deliver those messages as well. But I guess to come back to it is I always say in these in these more challenging conversations is when you can look for the lessons in there. How can you be better, seek clarification when you need to, and to be kind to yourself as you're on that path because every expert was once a beginner and so making mistakes is part of it. And I guess putting your hand up and saying, OK, so how can I be better here is, is usually the pathway that I go forward with people when we're looking at those kinds of conversations.

SUSAN MORIARTY:
That's a great point that's raised, Jo, thinking as we're approaching the end of the year, so many people start planning their goals for next year. What is your approach to goal setting and ensuring we stay on track to achieve them?

DR JO LUKINS:
Yeah, goal setting is one of my favourite topics because, you know, if we if we don't set ourselves goals then how will we know where we're going? So, goal setting has been my experience that is a really helpful strategy for lots of people. That being said, what I find is that sometimes people don't fully, I guess, think through all the ways to set goals up so that you're setting yourself up for success. So, if I can share my greatest concern is when someone tells me that they've just done their goal setting and it's 8:00 on the 31st of December because new year's resolutions, unfortunately, while they’re well-intentioned, they typically fail. And in fact, I think there's some research that suggests that if it's about the third week in January and you haven't achieved your goal, then you can leave it till next financial year or next year. So, the best way forward, I think when your goal setting is to start with your good intentions, what would you like it to look like in a certain period of time?

So, you might say, say to yourself, well, in three months' time I'd like to be achieving this or I'd like to have attained this, or I'd like to be closer to my goal of whatever it might be. So, having a bit of a time frame around it, and I guess that first part of it is understanding what success gonna look like. And then there's lots of things that we can do then to set ourselves up for success. So, we know, you know, the more specific and clear you can make your goals, the easier it is, you know. So, if we were going with a health goal and I just say I want to be fitter in three months' time, well, that's a great intention Jo but, what does that actually look like? You know, are you talking about you can lift heavier things at the gym or you can run faster or you're going and doing some physical activity four times a week, you know, what does that actually look like? So, setting some specific goals around our goal setting is important. And of course, all of this applies to us personally as well as in the workplace.

So, teams can set goals as well. We, you know, if you can make it measurable, that's a really good way for a lot of people. I know that when you feel like you're making some progress, that can be motivating as well. So, you know, maybe tracking your progress can be a useful thing to do. And of course, we want those goals to be realistic as well. So, something that's actually achievable for us because again, when we one of the interesting things humans are so curious, when we look into the future humans, we tend to think we're able to do more things than we probably can. So, I don't know, I don't think it's just me but, you know, sometimes I'll get myself into a week and I'll think, how on earth did I commit myself to all these things this week? And it's because a month ago and I was looking at my diary, I went, yeah, I'll get that done and I'll get that done and I'll get that done. And then all of a sudden I've committed myself to, you know, 50 hours of work in a in a 40-hour week. So, you know, it doesn't necessarily always come through.

So, just setting some realistic goals, starting with a good intention but just really thinking through, you know, how am I gonna make this happen? Who might I call on, who am I support network, and so forth, do I have the resources that I need? So, there's a few good tips and tricks about goal setting, and it's certainly something that you can find other resources on as well for people who are looking at it. But definitely goal setting is a great one for getting you motivated and getting you closer to the things that you want for yourself.

SUSAN MORIARTY:
And Jo off the back of that, do you have any tips on how to stay optimistic if your career progression isn't as quick as you would hope or of your peers around you?

DR JO LUKINS:
Yes. Yes. The old self-comparison, it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because you know, everyone's running their own race, if I can use the sports analogy there. And sometimes we do kind of look into the next lane. I'll stick with the analogy, look into the next line and see other people's progress. So again, it's it sounds like when people are looking to progress in their career and perhaps have had a little bit of a plateau or it's not quite going at the rate that they might hope it sounds like, I guess as a starting point, the two things that I would say that will help you on that path. The first one is patience. And I know patience isn't always a thing that we have all the things that we want. But, you know, patience is, you know, a good lesson for us when we're working towards something that's important for us. And then, of course, making sure that in addition to the progress that we are being optimistic. So, we know that our mindset is incredibly important when it comes to things like our career goals.

And so when we are more optimistic, then we're more hopeful and things are more helpful and that really helps to serve us. So again, I know it's challenging when the progress isn't where we want it to be. A little bit of patience, a little bit of optimism is important, but then come back to what we were talking about earlier about the communication. Who can you go and talk to about your career progression, who can give you some feedback and be ready for the feedback, whatever it's going to be, and, you know, who are your support mechanisms that you can put in place to help you with that?

SUSAN MORIARTY:
In the HR profession, maintaining our own mental health is equally as important as supporting the teams that we're responsible for. I'm interested to get your perspective Jo as a mental skills coach for elite athletes, how do you keep high-performing individuals motivated to perform when they aren't succeeding despite their abilities?

DR JO LUKINS:
Yeah, that's a tricky time because I guess the thing with sport is you're putting yourself out there and that involves a thing called risk-taking and with our risk-taking when we set our goals, sometimes we don't get the outcomes that we want. So, one of the things that I've found with working with professional athletes is, to be in that space you have to learn how to navigate the disappointments. And I think that's something that we can all learn from the sporting space is, you know, you don't have to be an elite athlete to think like one. So, that mindset piece is incredibly important in terms of how you navigate, navigate through the success and how you navigate through the disappointments. So, one of my little phrases that I hold on to is that success leaves clues. So, when we are successful, we benefit from the wisdom of paying attention to why did that happen? Like, it wasn't because you just rocked up and it went well, you know, success comes about from a range of reasons. So, for us professionally, when you've had success and you've had some wins there, what has led to that?

So, understanding your recipe, if you like, around success and then also looking for the clues when the disappointments come along. So, many of the elite athletes that I work with, you know, they take the disappointments in a harsh way. You know, it's never fun in that space to, you know, and that might be not making a team or that might be losing or that might be not performing to the ability that you might want to. But it's really, it's not so much what happens in that moment, what the important part of what you do next. How do you dust yourself off from it, how do you pick yourself up and how do you keep going. So, that motivation is really important, you might lean back into your goals and remind yourself about why you're doing what you're doing, you might forgive yourself for having that human moment. And I think the thing when you are managing and responsible for other people, it's really important to look after yourself so you can look after others. And I know it's an analogy that often gets used but I don't mind repeating it.

But you know, each time you get onto an aircraft and the team take you through the air safety demonstration about in the event of unexpected turbulence, the mask will drop from the ceiling. The next bit is one of the most valuable pieces of advice any of us can take which is to put your own oxygen mask on before helping others. So, if within your profession, part of your responsibility is to care for others, to care for those in your team, your team need you to care for yourself first. One, because you deserve it because you need to look after yourself but two because you need to role model how to do that to your team members as well. And when they see you looking after yourself, when they see you taking that lunch break or talking about the fact that you went out for a walk on the weekend or whatever, those things that you might do, you're role modelling, the importance of looking after yourself. So, those two things really do go hand in hand.

SUSAN MORIARTY:
Part of our role is also providing support for those returning to work following an injury or an illness. How can we best support someone who might be returning to another role?

DR JO LUKINS:
So, such a great question and such an important role for those people who have that responsibility. So, there's many things that you can do, my first thing that I go I go straight to when you ask that question Susan is start by listening, you know, to talk to the person who's coming in. Because of course, if particularly if someone is going to like you said to another role, what's happening for that person is there's two big parts of adjustment there. It's a return to work, which is an adjustment, and then there's going to another role, so, that means change. And change is one of those things that humans have, you know, lots of different responses to. So, the challenge with change is and this isn't always the case but it's often the case people often their default reaction, if I can put it that way, to change is, no I don't like it. So, we often don't like change whether it's anything from our favourite piece of software suddenly moved a button on us or something and we can't find where that is all the way through to, like you said, roles within our work.

So understand, I guess, approaching someone and understanding that returning can be challenging, adjusting to a new role can be challenging, and having that conversation with someone to see what their thoughts and feelings are around it. Now, for some people, they may be so pleased and grateful that they're coming back to work and so glad that they've got an opportunity to go into another role. So, you'll find the responses by people can be quite varied but taking that time to hear someone, you know, often for us in our workplaces, the most precious commodity that we have is our time. So, when you give your time to a staff member who is returning, when they genuinely, you know, that active listening, they genuinely feel heard, that will go a long way to building that relationship with that person, which will then make the pathway forward as they return to work and adjust to the new roles a little bit easier.

SUSAN MORIARTY:
Well, I'd just like to thank you so much Jo for being part of this conversation. For me on a personal note, mental health, being able to look after myself so I can look after others, particularly for those in leadership roles is so important. So, I really do extend my sincere thanks for joining us and for sharing some of the strategies and the tips, and hints to help us perform at our best. So, thank you very much.

DR JO LUKINS:
Thank you for having me here for the conversation.