APS HR Professional Stream Podcast

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Voiceover: Hello, and welcome to a podcast series for HR professionals across the public sector, highlighting innovative projects that are making a difference.

Craig Moore: We're speaking with Orlaith Wixted, who works in people and culture in the Department of Health and Human Services within the Victorian Public Service. Orlaith has a majority of experience in learning and development, particularly the leadership development. And originally Irish, as you're about to hear. Came to Australia some 11 years ago, working in the department for almost 10 years. And she has a number of areas of interest that relates to HR. Along with leadership development, there's also the strategic value that HR can provide a business and the role of making HR a reality. Orlaith, welcome.

Orlaith Wixted: Thank you very much. Thank you for having.

Craig: Lovely to speak with you. And I guess we're very fortunate to be able to speak with you, because before we get to your actual project and the body of work that you've invested a bit of time, since December 2019, you've actually been on maternity leave. You've got a young daughter. Congratulations.

Orlaith: Thank you very much. Yep, so it's just a busy end to 2019, finishing up work on maternity leave, and then I handed my project in a week later, and then the early arrival of that lovely daughter, a week later again. So it was all a bit hectic, but we're all good now.

Craig: I'm very pleased to hear that. Let's talk about your project, before you went on leave. And tell us a bit of background. What was the driver in your particular project?

Orlaith: I'll give you just a little bit about the organisation. So as you said, I work for health and human services within the Victorian public sector. And that is a state government department. So it's across Victoria, 10,000 staff working across 59 Victorian sites, delivering a host of services, both via direct service delivery, and also via the funding of community sector organisations, and including the Health Service in Victoria. And it had a budget of $25.6 billion for 2019-2020. So you can see the scale of services that that delivers to the Victorian public.

And so a major driver overall for the department is the implementation of the National Disability Insurance Scheme, so the NDIS. So that's a huge hit for the department in that the service of some of our, the majority of our disability services, shift from direct service of individual departments to the funded sector. And with that, there's a significant transfer over as well.

So this really shakes up the department, and how it's structured, and what it does. So in line with that, we have to look-- so were we were looking at what kind of leadership requirements we have for the future. How is that different? How do we really enhance the leadership capability we have?

So that's the bigger picture. And then, the process that I was focused on was the executive talent management process, which is part of my day job. So this process was established in 2016, and since that time, between 2016 and '19, the concept was set up. It then moved into trying to get our stakeholders across what it was and, get that adapted to the environment in the department, and focus on, probably, the first of the two stages we had within talent management for executives and being the identification stage.

So we did really well on the identification stage. We had really good participation. We found everybody, we had less and less changes through our calibration processes. And so that was going quite well.

The flip side of that was that we then needed to move to enhance the development piece, because we had some fairly poor metrics about the development activities that were being undertaken for particular segments of our identified talent group.

So for example, we looked at two talent pools over about a nine-month period, two successive talent pools. So it would have been quite a big transfer of people from one to the other. They, obviously, don't totally change. And we found that 60% of them had done temporary assignments, which is reasonable. But we found that only 17% of those people had done a cross-functional temporary assignment.

So the concept, and from the research, the idea that actually, that idea of cross-functional experience is key to leadership development and expanding people's horizons outside of the subjects or areas they're used to working in. So there were some metrics that we came up with and went, oof, we're probably not maximising the development piece as much as we can and not maximising as much as we can towards the future needs of the department. But then we were thinking of this project, going, OK, there's an opportunity here to really dig into this more.

Craig: How much time did you give yourself to get this prepared? And did you give yourself an end date where you wanted to see it implemented and the talent management space up and running better to what it was?

Orlaith: So we were guided by the length of time that the AHRI process gives you. So there was a 30-week time frame in there. So we have a large executive cohort. So it wasn't realistic to think that we were going to achieve all of that within that 30-week time frame.

So the way that we broke it down was, OK, let's do a bit of a policy. Let's pick something and work through a potential consistent and strategic approach to development planning and implementation, see how that goes, tweak it, and then, ideally, to expand. So my project was scoped on that policy.

So that was over that 30 weeks, including the up-front piece of our planning, which I have to say, I found a really useful exercise. Probably, I think, we find that we don't have that much time, or we don't carve out as much time for that upfront planning. But the idea of really being able to find the objective, the business problem, the objective, the metrics, it just gives you a road map.

So if things change along the way, you're able to go back to those objectives, and you can tweak easily, as opposed to being a bit unsure of what to do next. So within the timeline I had, we handed in the proposals in, maybe, June time, the plans and proposals, and then had until the end of November to complete the pilot piece.

Then, this process has a much longer-- obviously, the finished data set, to make any of those changes that came up through the project, that come up through the evaluation, and then look to roll it out and implement it further.

Craig: It sounds like a very exciting time for you, even though you're on maternity leave but not actually in the workplace. But--

Orlaith: I know!

Craig: Are you looking-- do you feel like there's this sense that I should be there?

Orlaith: Oh, totally, totally! I'd love to be there. I'd love to be able to continue to contribute to it and guide it in this immediate stage. I think, like lots of things, that's just the way it all goes. I’ll come back at some point, and I'll see what exciting things are on the table. But I really-- I think there's great value in this, so that when the time is right, they can definitely utilise this.

Craig: I want to ask you-- well, I want to ask you that value. I mean, to you, and to the Victorian Public Service as a bigger entity here what is the value? Is there a dollar figure, or is there a people figure, is there an HR figure that you can put to the business on your project?

Orlaith: So the way that we looked at this was, if we were going to do talent management, we had to look at doing it end-to-end. So doing the first stage is all well and good, but actually, we don't derive any value unless we actually translate that into the development of the future needs of the department.

So the dollar value, we kind of worried, was to put on that in a way, which is to say the time it takes in the department, and principally quite senior executives, to go through this process of identification, the time, the dollar value, roughly, that sat on that was probably nearly around $30,000 a year, if we look at all the time involved in that. Now, that's, obviously, a cost that's already there, but that's time, and time is money.

So we were in positions like that to go-- we can maximise the use of their time by doing the development piece really well, and then we were getting the return on the whole lot. And in time, we had the ability, then, to actually try and quantify that particular value, when we get that development on the line for senior leaders.

Craig: Now, the Department of Health and Human Services in the Victorian Public Service, of course, is overseeing a lot of the COVID response for the state.

Orlaith: Absolutely

Craig: Yeah, and doing a tremendous job, I might add.

Orlaith: Yeah.

Craig: What does this mean for-- does this mean that your project itself is just paused for the moment?

Orlaith: So as with a lot of companies or businesses as usual, particularly in the corporate space, there's a lot of stuff going on all the while those resources are redirected into supporting the response to COVID. So this project is one of those things that is just holding for a while. So when the time comes again, we'll, hopefully, be able to get back into all those things.

But that's the nature of government, that responsive piece, and being able to do that, and being able to, at that point in time, prioritise what's needed most and meet that need. This, obviously, is a huge need now, and I know that so many of my colleagues, they're working tremendously hard through all of this. And fair dinks to all of them, yeah.

Craig: It is amazing work that not only that you have been doing with your immediate colleagues, but also the greater Victorian Public Service at this time.

Orlaith: Absolutely.

Craig: If we had a crystal ball and you knew when it was all going to come back and pick up, that would be fantastic. We don't, but we do wish you well with the further work in the talent management space that you've been devoting so much time to. And hopefully, you're back in the work space at a good time where you can actually see some of those results come forth.

Orlaith: Absolutely. Thanks very much.

Craig: Thanks, Orlaith. Good to speak with you.

Orlaith: You, too. Bye.

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Voiceover: Thanks for listening remember to join GovTEAMS to find out more about the APS HR professional network. It's a great way to connect and collaborate with your HR colleagues.

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Voiceover: Hello, and welcome to a podcast series for HR professionals across the public sector, highlighting innovative projects that are making a difference.

Craig Moore: Senior Workforce Planner in the Department of Defence Jacci Sharkey has a passion for driving robust workforce planning practice, most recently supporting Defence's National Naval Shipbuilding Enterprise. She is a trusted advisor to Defence senior leadership on workforce planning matters for its current and future submarine programmes. Welcome, Jacci.

Jacci Sharkey: Thanks, Craig

Craig: Now, let's begin by giving us a brief overview of your project, including the environment you were working in at the time. You might want to think, maybe, what was your role? What was it like for the organisation-- the size, budget, key stakeholders, all the usual suspects that were involved there?

Jacci: Yes. So I was actually really lucky. I came into submarines around the same time as when my AHRI project was starting to take off. So I really could have a bit of flexibility in what I chose to do. So coming in, straightaway I thought, well, what better way than to start with the first step in the workforce planning process, which is demand forecasting?

So the focus for my project was solely going and looking at our future workforce requirements for submarines. So that involved working with 20 different stakeholders within the programme within Defence People Group, so our HR business partners. I applied this across an integrated workforce, approximately 300 people with APS, ADF, contracted staff, who are responsible for delivering one of the largest Defence acquisition projects to date. And it was actually a really exciting project to undertake.

Craig: Well, I would imagine that is one huge challenge, listening to that. But what was the business problem that your project, though, set out to solve?

Jacci: One of the key elements of my project was to understand how we can identify and minimise our workforce risks while ensuring we have the skills available to grow in that we've committed to government. So we know that something big like a Defence acquisition project of submarines is going to test the external labour market, both in government and on the industry side. So I wanted to take a step back and look at what we were currently doing, where we thought we needed to be, and then I thought the best way to go about this was to understand the skills that we need, but not just at a high level of, we need engineers.

We actually need to take that deeper to understand, do we need electrical engineers? Do we need mechanical engineers? What kind of experience do these engineers have? And when do we need it?

So noting the environment that submarines operates within, it was really important for me to identify how we can continue to support the work that we're doing, and also support having a world-class submarine capability into the future. So this included making sure that we had an accurate understanding about future workforce requirements, we were able to identify the skills required to enable proactive recruitment and attraction activities, we could manage the increased competition within industry, noting the ramp-up of competition across government and industry capabilities, how do we maximise the ADF involvement? They have significant experience and knowledge within these capability platforms. So how can we leverage off those and then, also, support knowledge transfer across our division and align our workforce culture, whilst also supporting the development of a sovereign Naval shipbuilding capability.

Craig: Gee, I'll you tell you what, that's a lot. What a challenge! So it's all good in theory that this is what you want to do, but then you've got to apply it, Jacci, in a practise. So what were you hoping to achieve out of all of this initiative?

Jacci: So we wanted to get a forecast that could capture a whole heap of data out from now until 2035. So I wanted to capture things like, what are the critical capabilities that we need? What are the timing of these critical capabilities? What is the vacancy time frame of these roles that we could have in the business before it actually impacts on our outcomes? I was hoping that it would identify future recruitment timeframes so we could be proactive in that and not wait for gaps to occur, but also predict our success or likelihood of getting success within that labour market based on that. And then, also, understanding all this experience within that we required to deliver. So by going out and getting all this data, we could have this big repository that told us all of these things all at once.

Craig: Sounds like you can never have too much data.

Jacci: Never.

[LAUGHS]

Jacci: Data is awesome.

Craig: Oh, so I'm told. And I can tell from you, you love the data.

Jacci: Yeah.

Craig: So what sort of evidence-based data did you actually use to make some of your decisions and, perhaps, put an influence on what you were trying to achieve?

Jacci: So it was actually a really different approach for me coming in. Traditionally, I think, in the past, we have used position establishment data to forecast our requirements. But what we wanted to do was actually go out and get it from the ground up. I wanted to go talk to the people and actually understand, OK, so you've got project phases coming up. Your current establishment is going to have to change. So what does this look like?

So I actually physically went and met with everyone in the programme to understand their workforce risks, challenges, strengths, opportunities, and how they see their forward work plan moving along, to generate an individual team forecast. So this level of data that was captured was-- it was so detailed, so detailed. But we were able to, when we analysed it, tell a really interesting story. That's really cool.

Craig: [LAUGHS] I can tell it. It sounds-- I can hear it in your voice, that this is something you're passionate about.

Jacci: Well, so out of this data, you could actually see the workforce growth in areas, and different teams had different projections based on the involvement and what they're going to be doing. We could predict recruitment outcomes based on this and how that's going to impact. We could understand how vacancies would impact business, and maybe this team could go with a vacancy a bit longer than another. So let's rearrange these critical capabilities.

But then, what was really cool was that we then translated this into financial data. So what is the cost to business if we were to scenario model this out based on all these predictions, and then what are we going to do about it?

Craig: Well, I think the next step, wouldn't it be to try to get that buy-in from the powers that be?

Jacci: Yeah.

Craig: How did you get on with that?

**Jacci:**I was actually really lucky. So really lucky in that we've been on a workforce planning journey this entire time that I've been in submarines. And I think I mentioned that I came in and I just dove right into this. So I had that trust initially to say, this is an activity I really want to do, it's an activity I think you need, and this is how I think it's going to benefit us.

So in saying that, as a whole, I did start off quite slowly in the workforce planning space, presenting data that was of importance, that was the hot topic of the day. And we've since evolved to update the metrics to be a bit more predictive and, I guess, forward-leaning, in a way. So a key learning in this was to translate HR speak into business speak to ensure it resonated with the stakeholders. Then I could start to incorporate all these additional metrics, identify risks that we probably weren't aware of in the first instance and that were probably bubbling under the surface. And because of this, I could communicate a bit more of a linear view of our workforce requirements and minimise our risk exposure. And now we are planning our workforce in a more forward-leaning strategic way, and I guess that's a learning for myself. I am a specialist, I think you've noticed, with my love of data. But I can't just go in and say, this is what you need. I actually took the time to understand the business and the execs and their priorities to help shape a workforce planning approach that would suit their needs and suit what they needed to communicate back to government and their superiors.

Craig: Because there wasn't really just one-size-fits-all.

Jacci: Absolutely not.

Craig: This is something completely new.

Jacci: Yeah.

Craig: Adventurous.

Jacci: Correct.

Craig: Cutting-edge, maybe.

Jacci: Maybe, sure.

Craig: But why shouldn't it be? But along the way, though, you've still also got to factor in when it comes challenges like cultural, what does that mean for the people space? Shifting the thinking, if you like, of some of your key stakeholders, what were some of those data gaps, if there were any?

Jacci: So something I found personally challenging was adapting my communication style, which I just highlighted, it's communicating that bigger picture of workforce planning and how we're not just talking about submarines here as well. We're actually talking about a whole Naval shipbuilding enterprise. We feed in. So how does that look, as well. And so that is just not using, I guess, the HR terminology in and out, and translating the work impacts into the business impacts, and showing that you understand the business. Additionally, as managers, we generally are living in the here and now. It doesn't come naturally to think five 10, even 15 years in the future.

So it was a really great experience to get to sit down with these highly technical and experienced individuals and discuss their workforce challenges, and then begin to shape the thinking around, OK, well, now what? How do I sustain a workforce that is going to ebb and flow all around these different project phases, through the design, to production, to sustainment of submarines, which all require varying levels of skill sets? And lastly, as you mentioned, we captured a significant amount of data. And something I didn't anticipate is not having a repository to store that data. No one wants to look at a giant excel spreadsheet. They're scary. So for us, it was about finding the right stakeholders to talk to, to be able to capture this data and actually use it in a more strategic way.

Craig: And it's also a bit of a sell, if I can put it like that, because this is something new, cutting-edge, as I said before. You've got to sell it to your executive stakeholders.

Jacci: Yeah, that's been an interesting journey, but I think a lot of people are now seeing the value in it and what it can actually bring. And a lot of people are starting to come in and chat to me and say, well, actually I want to do it for my area. How did you do it? How can we do it? And so those discussions are happening, and it's actually really exciting.

Craig: So Jacci, this-- great story, great outcomes, you know. And to be able to think that you've gone from theory, starting to get into a bit of a practise. And then, of course, with anything like this, any project, you like to look back and do a little bit of an evaluation-- "Measure what you treasure," as I like to call it. So what was some of the immediate key measures of success you found?

Jacci: So interestingly, with a strategic workforce planning process, results are not generally immediate. You're really not going to see your impact for about a year or two. But in saying that, because the project was focused just on that forecasting piece, since then, we've used that as a foundation to create a strategic workforce plan for the programme, which took through the entire workforce planning process. So that's been endorsed, and we're now utilising that. We have circulated that around numerous stakeholders, and we're now using that forecast as a fundamental input to exec reporting, government reporting. So it is this foundational piece. And also, I've since applied the same methodology again. It worked the first time, I haven't changed it, and I consider that a success, in that if I can go and do it in one area, and I can then pick it up and put it in another, and then, also, communicate with all these other stakeholders that want to do it, that, to me, is success.

Craig: It's a transferable quality.

Jacci: Correct, yeah.

Craig: Very good. You've heard that saying, it won't happen overnight, but it will happen.

Jacci: Yeah.

Craig: This is a great example of that. What about some of the further long-term impact of the initiative? How are you going to measure some of that, Jacci?

Jacci: So we provide a very detailed workforce planning dashboard to our executive, which leverages off a lot of areas within the workforce plan, leveraging off the demand, but also the supply analysis that, no doubt, comes of it. So what we will see, as we begin to follow this workforce plan is a roadmap, we will start to see these metrics align-- whether it be culture, recruitment outcomes, separation rates, all of these things will start to paint a picture that the plan is working. So that's how we're planning to do that longer term.

Craig: And finally, what would be your recommendations looking forward? Are there any actions or changes that could be made based on your own evaluations to date?

Jacci: I would definitely recommend anyone that's creating their own framework and methodology to test with your networks. Test with your stakeholders-- both within the specialisation you work in, but also outside of it. Because if those that are outside of your network don't understand what you're trying to communicate, it'll be difficult to get your stakeholders on board. They're also going to apply a different lens to the same topic, and it's going to give you a more robust outcome. So I'm grateful that I've had that network through this process, as I've been able to apply it, as I said, in more than one area. And we're continuing to refine. Always open to feedback, and I think that's a really important part.

Craig: It's a tremendous story, great project, and, Jacci, thanks for sharing it with us.

Jacci: Anytime.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Thanks for listening. Remember to join GovTEAMS to find out more about the APS HR Professional Network. It's a great way to connect and collaborate with your HR colleagues.

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Voiceover: Hello and welcome to a podcast series for HR professionals across the public sector, highlighting innovative projects that are making a difference.

Craig Moore: Nicole Lisle is Assistant Director of workforce planning in the People, Culture, and Capability Branch at the Department of Education Skills and Employment, 10 years in HR, six of those in the private sector and approaching four years in public service, at various iterations of the department. She's a certified HR practitioner and in 2019 worked flexibly to deliver on a project on workplace flexibility. She has a focus on HR and her career has now added a lot of value into the HR space. Welcome to Nicole.

Nicole Lisle: Thank you very much for having me.

Craig: Terrific to have you as part of our podcast series. I understand you're responsible for delivering a project that would enable workplace flexibility by designing some practical user focused and accessible solutions. Tell us a bit more about that.

Nicole: So part of my certification project was sitting back and doing some research and thinking what is it that would actually be quite practical for people so that they could actually work flexibly. What would actually make an actual difference and use that word "enabling"? And that's the word that I focused on a lot. So what kind of intranet space could you create that would be user-friendly? What kind of event could you host that would really model the behaviour that we want to start seeing in that flexible working space? And are we putting out there, when we're advertising to potential recruits-- are we putting actually out there about-- we actually already do a lot of great things in flexible work at the department. Well what was then the Department of Employment skills small family business.

Craig: Is this a bit like that approach you hear about, attract, train, and retain?

Nicole: Absolutely. And the other part as well is the development piece. So it's not just about trying to get them in and trying to look after them right now, it's thinking about the future as well. And if we can build a culture where our staff actually enabled to work flexibly and that helps them develop in whatever it is that they're trying to do as well, it kind of does that full circle of that whole traditional HR piece as well.

Craig: So the project itself about being flexible-- we use the word "flexibility" a lot here, I know, because it's almost like your favourite word, isn't it? "Flexibility."

Nicole: Possibly is.

Craig: But in the early days when you looked at this, what kind of research did you initially start with?

Nicole: I started with looking at what data sets we had available to us. And I scrounged around to everything that we had, whether it was in our HR data, whether it was in APS census results, what else that we had sitting in Excel spreadsheets, and really importantly going back and reading what have we done previously in this space. What are some of our senior leaders or other HR practitioners-- what is their experience been at the department over time?

And pulling all of that together, what else is happening in our external environment and having a think as well-- what are the academics saying? What are the think tanks saying? What are the important reports out there? And there's a lot of them. It's not just me, as I found out on my journey, that's really passionate about this. There's a lot of people that care a lot about this. And my key research was the more I spoke to the more people showed some real passion in this space. And-- so it was really, really broad research essentially.

Craig: The word "data" comes up a lot.

Nicole: Absolutely it does in my day-to-day work and it certainly did in this project as well.

Craig: Did you want to identify any gaps, though?

Nicole: So, as I am sure a number of HR practitioners will find, the data is never going to be perfect. There are gaps. And a great example-- my husband works flexibly. He doesn't have a formal agreement in place. His employer has the flexibility that, in fact, he doesn't need to fill out a form to simply pick up the kids once a week from school or whatever the case might be. So we don't have his-- they don't have his data. And that happened along our agency as well. We don't have all of that data. So what you end up doing is getting what you can.

So the census-- we actually found that then department had nearly half of our workforce identified in the census that they work flexibly. So that was a great data point, but that was one of the really few things I suppose you could really grip on to and say there's a lot of us out there who are working flexibly. So it's one of the hard ones, but it's also sitting back and saying, well, what qualitative evidence can I gather then if I can't get the quantitative. And that's incredibly valid and important as well.

Craig: We keep using the word "flexible" and I guess it probably has different interpretations or meanings. And you've given your example, like with your husband, about school pickups. But what about other circumstances in family? Did you find that there were other aspects that perhaps weren't identified that perhaps could've been?

Nicole: One of the critical things that we did through the project was get a diversity of opinions. So we've got a number of employee group-- had a number of employee groups at the department. And we went around talking to each of those different employee groups and we actually found out that they were different. What flexibility means to our indigenous employees actually was quite different to people who are in the culturally and linguistically diverse employees, which was different again to people in the gender equity network. So there was a whole lot of different views out there.

And "flexibility" was not singularly defined and that was one of the key gaps I had identified to my executive to say we really need to come up with a common definition of what that means. And when we say "flexibility" at what was then the department, what are we actually meaning and what are we saying? And then when you're actually delivering your project, you're actually making sure that you can cover off on those diverse perspectives and, hopefully, get something that's available and accessible to everybody.

Craig: You mentioned the "executive" just a moment ago, Nicole. It's important, I know, to have the executive on your side. Were they grateful that you've done this project and, perhaps, maybe opened their eyes-- not to say that it wasn't there but, perhaps, really putting more of a focus on it?

Nicole: I think it's a really great way to put it because the agency had a number of their strategic documents that it was going to be a priority, it was something that was important. And it hadn't actually necessarily been picked up and focused on over the couple of years prior to that. And that's one part of having that evidence base to say right here and right now we need to be prioritising this piece of work and we need to be prioritising flexible working.

And that journey over a lot of last year actually ended up where at towards the end the executive could really see the value in getting a project that would truly enable our staff to work flexibly. Because when our staff were working flexibly, then it builds this culture so that we can deliver, and be adaptable, and be resilient and-- whether it's the public or whether it's the government being able to respond because we have that flexible workforce. So absolutely they certainly were incredibly supportive and there's no way I could have delivered without that authorising environment to prioritise this piece of work and then being able to plan as, well, what does that look like in the future?

Craig: Does it lead to better engagement amongst the employees?

Nicole: That's a really great question and that one is a long-term. I can't tell you right now, six months on from delivering, whether we've enhanced--

Craig: So it's still early days.

Nicole: One of the deliverables I did was actually having a look-- we did some work at the department two years prior. In 2017, we had a flex by default trial. And when we had that trial that was evaluated at the time so a couple of years before that-- and, in fact, what had become apparent through the research we were doing is that we hadn't done the long-term evaluation piece. We hadn't sat down to say we had a trial in five branches, have we got that engagement that we were hoping to do? Have we got the retention levels we were hoping? And the question kept coming up and it wasn't necessarily something I'd originally planned to do when I started this project. But it became really apparent that that's what was on the executive's mind is your exact question, have we enhanced engagement by having this flexible workforce?

So what are the deliverables ended up being that evaluation piece and sitting down with my executive and presenting to them the findings of two years on from the last flexible working HR, I guess, input or project. How did it trend over the past couple of years? And that's where some of the surprising results come in. And I put in place the recommendations is someone needs to evaluate the work that was done in 2019 as well. Where we're successful? How have we tracked from there? And have we got those engagement levels that's flexible working has been promising that it would show.

Craig: I mentioned at the open that you've had six years in the private sector in HR-- and back to your research and you looked upon and you mentioned before that you did go external, if you like, or looked at some, what we'll call, professional experts-- were there those that really stood out, some of those experts with the thinking that you could adapt or adopt in this case?

Nicole: There was so many. There's so many different organisations, as well as in the public sector, doing absolutely fantastic things in this space. And one of the areas that we delivered was panel discussion. And we've got two colleagues that came in, one from the private sector and one from the not-for-profit, to talk about how flexible working looks in those environments so that we actually can hear-- in one of the cases, their entire corporation has got flexible working. Everybody's doing it. It was absolutely normalised.

And they had a lot of evidence over a really long period of time to show how they do have that engagement. They're attracting people because of that specific thing, that that's what they're known for. And some of the state public service agencies themselves had some fantastic work as well and being able to take, as part of your research-- taking and get some of those fantastic ideas from all over the place really do allow you to sit back and say what's then fit for purpose for our organisation in this current state, in our current time, and with what else is happening around us as well.

Craig: So you're kind of refining it as you go.

Nicole: Constantly improving it, absolutely. And the approach that we were taking through the project is that agile approach, that you're moving forward, but you're prepared to change at any moment based on new information, new evidence, or new data-- whatever comes through. You're not so stuck in your project that you have to deliver the five things you set out to do.

And that's exactly what happened in this case. I didn't deliver what I set out to do. I've delivered different things. And that is absolutely OK. It's part of project management.

Craig: It is. And this flexible aspect that you talk about, of course, what about the modelling of the behaviours, though? How do you get that across the staff?

Nicole: It's a really great one to ask about, actually. And it's conversations like these that are absolutely imperative, where we can sit down and have a conversation, that you can deliver high quality project in a pretty short space of time with minimal resources and work flexibly at the same time. You can do that.

We had this panel event where we had, really, senior leaders from, as I said, not just the public sector. We had people from our own agency, as well as elsewhere, talking about that behaviour. And the more that we talk about it and hear about it, the more it becomes normalised. And the more that it becomes normalised, the more people feel that they can either ask their supervisors for that, or, potentially, they're talking to their teams about how they're going to manage this flexible working piece.

So instead of me saying to my supervisor, I want Fridays off, it's actually saying to my team, if I'm wanting to have Fridays off, is everybody else around on Fridays? And then coming forward and saying, our team could actually do flexible working as a team. And the more you go from here, from where we started to where we want to head, we actually end up with some really fantastic outcomes as well.

Craig: You call it "normalised." I'd probably call it "accepted behaviours."

Nicole: Absolutely, "accepted behaviours."

Craig: And it's a change. And people hate change, as a rule, us humans, don't we? But as you said, that's a great example. If you cover the work still, and the business still operates, then there's no reason why you can't have that flexible behaviour.

Nicole: Exactly. And I've got fantastic statistics to tell you-- the success of the event, the success of the intranet page; I've got lots of indications. The one that really sticks out for me is the storytelling piece. I was on my way to pick up my kids from school. I leave work about 2:30 most afternoons. And I caught the lift down with another executive-level colleague, and having a chit-chat where he was going, whatever the case might be.

And he said he was on his way to his kid's Christmas concert, because it was in November. And I said, oh, fantastic. And he said, well, if this SES who we just heard from at the panel discussion the week before, if she can do it and go to her kid's Christmas concerts, I can do it as well.

And so just being able to hear that someone took away from the event that we'd organised, we'd seen an SES-- really senior band two-- talk about the importance of going to a Christmas concert, and then we're seeing, within a week, an individual being able to spend time with his family and being able to ask the question of his supervisor and walk out the door at 2:30 so he can make a Christmas concert. That, for me, is a huge measure of success which I can't necessarily put out there in a formal document, but that, for me, is that warm feeling of, that's fantastic. I'm really proud of the work that we achieved at the department last year.

Craig: It's almost a subtle way that your SES have empowered the staff.

Nicole: Exactly. And I think that nudge approach, where it's just these little incremental changes. And when you sit back and evaluate how those little changes have actually made a difference, you can actually start mapping out-- we're actually on a journey here of that cultural change piece, that it might take years, it might take months. It could take a really, really long time, but each time you hear stories like that, you want to be able to share that so others can hear that and keep telling those fantastic stories.

Craig: I think the flexible working that you talked about here with the Department of Education Skills, and Employment, a terrific example. But I reckon it's happening right across the APS with COVID at the moment.

Nicole: Without a doubt, it is happening. It has changed so much. It was-- one of the interesting pieces in preparing for today is thinking about where were we in November when this particular project was delivered, and where have we come right now? And there's a really interesting piece in that, to start measuring that. I'm sure a number of APS agencies are starting to show the journey and starting to map out how far we've come.

And then, the question remains, well, what is next? And I don't have the answer for that today, absolutely, but it's one that's certainly in the back of my mind, being such an advocate and passionate person in that flexible working space.

Craig: I daresay you don't have an answer. Probably, nobody has the answer. But going back to November, to put it even back then, nobody had that crystal ball.

Nicole: Not at all. And if we had a crystal ball, would you have believed me?

Craig: Well, [LAUGHS] there's probably a lot of people would have gone, no, because nobody was really prepared. I think that's a fair call to say, that six months after it first came to light, that we were going, wow, we're going to have to do some working from home. We're going to have to adjust ourselves, and we're going to have to adapt or do whatever what it was, and continue as business as usual.

Nicole: Indeed. And I talked about some of the data gaps earlier, and what metrics did we have to-- how many people were working from home on a regular basis come November last year at what was then the department that I was working for? And you then go, oh, we didn't necessarily have every single piece of data to say exactly how many were doing these ad hoc arrangements.

Because of COVID and that health and well-being focus, I can tell you now, we will know how many people are working from home at the moment. We will know what that looks like. So some of those data gaps I talked about earlier, we've actually bridged a lot of those, because we've needed to know, from a well-being and a health perspective, where are people, what are they doing, and are they safe doing whatever it is that they're doing at work?

And I think that's an absolutely fantastic piece that's come out of COVID, is that flexible working his been really accepted, really widespread across the public service in most of our country, as well, from the looks of it.

Craig: Yeah, looking after our people. And I guess the other side of it, too, was all about the IT. How do we get people connected?

Nicole: Indeed.

Craig: Didn't think about that, either, when we were probably-- you know?

Nicole: So that's actually one of the gaps that--

Craig: Towards the end of 2019.

Nicole: Interestingly, that's one of the gaps that I had worked through with my data analysis piece, is that we had some fantastic work that HR was doing and some fantastic work that IT was doing to help people work flexibly. But we hadn't actually sat back and gone, well, as a user-- and working from home is a great example-- as a staff member, I want to work from home.

Well, I'd actually have to go onto the HR intranet page and find the working from home policy. I'd then have to go find the place where the actual form was to apply for the form. I actually needed a laptop, or I needed some other IT hardware, for example. I then needed some software to be able to collaborate from home.

And all these things, at that point in time, were in different locations. And I was sitting back and saying, well, actually, if I were to work from home as a staff member, I don't need to know if I'm with IT, HR, or somebody else. I actually just want to get something solved.

So one of the deliverables that we put out there at the end of November was sitting back and designing it from a user centred approach, which is, OK, we've got everything in one place. Everything you need to know about working flexibly, you can find in that one place. And then you can go from there and know that that's that that central place that will divert you to anything that you need to know, and just get you going so you can just get on with the job of working in the manner in which you, and your supervisor, and your team want to work.

Craig: It's a great story, it really is, and I can tell you're proud. [LAUGHS]

Nicole: Oh, absolutely. And I think that's part of when you are able to work on something that you are truly passionate about. And that's where I am forever grateful and indebted to my project sponsors, that they may or may not have seen the vision initially that I had about how great flexible working could be, but we went on a journey together, and we got there in the end. And to be able to see the majority of, even, Australia working flexibly, it's awesome. It's fantastic.

And it's not just, hey, this was one particular great project that created that. It's not that at all. It's just that passion and that underlying belief that I've done flexible working now for close to eight years, I think, it's been. And it's just been my bread and butter. And I just encourage people to ask the question and have the conversation with their supervisors, with their teams, with anyone who'll listen, and try and see who's doing it, what works for them, and how it might work for you-- not just in a COVID world, but more broadly, as well, for lifestyle choices as well.

Craig: You're a great role model for it, Nicole. Thank you for your time.

Nicole: Oh, thank you very much for having me.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Thanks for listening. Remember to join GovTEAMS to find out more about the APS HR Professional Network. It's a great way to connect and collaborate with your HR colleagues.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Hello, and welcome to a podcast series for HR professionals across the public sector, highlighting innovative projects that are making a difference.

Craig Moore: Margaret Cowan is an Assistant Director at Services Australia in Canberra, previously known as the Department of Human Services. Now, she's worked in HR for over 10 years, and today, she's going to talk us through a project that she undertook to improve the quality of HR services being provided to the agency. Welcome, Margaret.

Margaret Cowan: Thank you, Craig.

Craig Moore: Let's kick off. Talk me through a bit of a brief overview of your project, including the environment you were working in at that time.

Margaret: So when I was deciding what project I wanted to do as part of the HR certification, the main things I wanted to do was to make sure I'd really achieve tangible outcomes within the time of my project-- so the eight months or so-- and make sure I really added value during that time. So I work at Services Australia in HR. In case you're not familiar with it, it's a very large service delivery government agency. It has approximately 32,000 employees. The work that Services Australia does is really important, especially with the Centrelink functions, Medicare, et cetera, and it's likely to touch everyone's lives at some point. So that HR is able to support the workforce is really important.

So the objective of my project was to ensure that the line areas within Services Australia were being provided with accurate and timely HR advice and support to enable them to perform their daily operations. So I thought it might be useful to give a bit of context as to how the HR functions work within Services Australia and what their structure is. So all of the HR functions at HR sit within the People Division. So this division delivers services to line areas across the agency, often referred to as the business, and seeks to align HR strategies and processes with the organisation's goals.

So there's many HR teams within Services Australia and in the People Division, but my project focused just on two of the teams. So the People Delivery Centres, or known as PDCs, these teams deliver the primary day-to-day HR support to employees and managers. So there are six PDCs, they're located throughout Australia, and each PDC is allocated one or two business lines. So they can specialise their support through those business lines. And their role is to provide expert advice and support to the business.

So the other team that the project focused on is, actually, the team I was working with in the time for the duration of the project, which was the Employee Relations Team, known as the ER team. So this team is a team of experienced HR practitioners. They provide expert advice and support to the PDCs on complex HR matters.

So the sorts of things they provide complex support on, behavioural issues, performance, attendance, health issues, or interpretation of the enterprise agreement. They're also the escalation point for all people matters that proceed to an external jurisdiction, such as Fair Work Australia or Human Rights. And the team is also the co-ordination point for employee terminations.

Craig: That's quite a comprehensive area, isn't it?

Now, I know this because I, like you, I'm an employee of Services Australia. It is enormous, and there are some talented people in there. So this is really good when we come into your project, because I daresay you might have been able to leverage a little bit here for your project?

Margaret: Well, that's right. And the other tricky thing about Services Australia, because it is so big, is a lot of the work's really unique. So in HR, you can't just understand, for instance, the IT component of the work. You need to understand all the customer-facing roles, and it's just so diverse. So there's a very high expectations on HR.

Craig: Yes. And the agency itself, if I'm not wrong, touches the lives of about 99% of the Australian public in some way.

Margaret: I would say so, yes.

Craig: It's amazing. It's amazing work. Let's talk about your work, though. What was the issue your project set out to solve, and how did you know in the first place, Margaret, that there was a problem?

Margaret: So during my time in HR at Services Australia, I'd worked for a number of years in both the PDC and also the ER team. I designed the project after having worked in these teams, and also in light of anecdotal evidence which suggested that the ER PDC model wasn't working as efficiently as it could be, and if there were any improvements that could be made here, then I thought that it was worth pursuing to ensure that the business areas continued to be provided with the best HR service possible.

The anecdotal evidence indicated areas for improvement, including that there was a lack of contextual understanding between each team-- so between the PDCs and the ER team-- of the day-to-day roles, and pressures, and challenges faced by each respective team. I think that this can easily happen between teams that work really closely together for a long period of time but don't get an opportunity to have exposure to the challenges faced by each other. For example, on some occasions, the PDCs were frustrated that the ER team's advice being provided was taking too long, or, in some cases, was considered to be too conservative. Although there was sound reasoning in these delays and for the advice, the PDCs didn't have any visibility of this.

On the other hand, the ER sometimes felt the PDCs had unrealistic time frames on when the advice would be provided on complex matters. There was also feedback from the PDC perspective that they were, at times, receiving advice that, although compliant with legislation, it was not always easily transferable to the business setting, or that it was not provided with the appropriate context in order for the PDCs to explain the advice to the managers they were assisting.

Lastly, there were also shortcomings in the then-Case Inquiry Referral Process. This refers to the emails that the PDC teams would send through to the ER team when seeking advice on complex HR matters. From the ER perspective, there was sometimes frustration with the quality of the information being provided by the PDCs when making a new case referral or inquiry.

For example, in some cases, the ER team would be sent referrals that had a collection of multiple emails within them and attachments embedded in the emails. And the ER team would need to spend quite a lot of time forming them into a timeline. Largely, this was as the PDCs didn't have a clear understanding of what information the ER team actually needed and in what format.

Craig: So there's almost like a sense of confusion.

Margaret: I think so. And I think it's because both of these teams-- well all the PDC teams and the ER team-- are really busy. And they have a lot of priority work. And sometimes, you just want to get the answer really quickly. But it was always important that it was put in a really good format for ER to be able to interpret. But then, on the other side, ER, perhaps, weren't giving as much context as they could have when providing the information back to the PDC teams.

Craig: And as you said a short time ago, Margaret, you've 30-odd thousand staff as your audience. That's huge.

Margaret: Very busy roles.

Craig: And very busy, very busy. OK, so what outcomes or other objectives were you hoping to achieve with your project there?

Margaret: So overall, I wanted to strengthen the relationship between the team and the PDC teams. Although they were really strong, and there was mutual respect there, I saw this project as an opportunity to step back from the BAU and put some processes in place to streamline the workflows between the teams, and also to, essentially, create opportunities to walk in each other's shoes and experience what it was like for the other team.

To do this, I identified three objectives for the project. The first one was to build PDC exposure to the day-to-day activities and challenges of the ER team. This involved the PDC team members undertaking temporary placements in the ER team and actually performing work of ER team.

Secondly, to improve the ER team's knowledge and understanding of the day-to-day activities of the PDCs, with a particular focus on ensuring the advice provided to PDCs from the ER perspective adequately considered the business context and application. Basically, the team needed to get the knowledge of each PDC and the needs of the business areas up to date so we could provide quality HR solutions in the business context. This involved ER team members undertaking job shadowing in the PDCs throughout Australia.

Thirdly, to implement a new structured email referral process for PDCs to use when referring HR matters to the ER team.

Craig: I think it's an interesting concept and a great approach, where you've taken some of your People Delivery Centre staff and put them in the ER team, and vice versa.

Margaret: Exactly.

Craig: Because there was a little while ago, when it was like Centrelink, if we can go back there, when we had call Centres, or smart Centres, and customer service Centres, or customer-facing, was that staff would swap between the two to get a better understanding about how the business actually worked.

Margaret: That's right.

Craig: Whereas before, it was-- I'm not going to say the word "siloes," because that comes up a lot, but I'm really pleased to see and hear that that's what you've done, which is really, really good.

Margaret: And I think the intention had always been there, but of needed someone that had the time. And in this case, it was me undertaking a project to take a step back and think, how could things be improved?

Craig: Well done. So how did you present your case, then, for change to the key stakeholders, including a number of the executives at Services Australia?

Margaret: Right from the start, when I was developing my project, I ensured that I undertook extensive stakeholder engagement and consultation, as I felt this was really important. As the project had a real people element and I was trying to change perceptions, I knew that, in order for the project to be a success and create real value, that the stakeholders needed to be actively involved and also feel an ownership of the project.

As part of my stakeholder management and communication plan, I firstly ensured that my manager and the senior executives of the People Division were supportive of me undertaking the project. Once I gained their support, I approached the key stakeholders-- that being the directors of the PDC teams-- to seek their support on me working with their teams, and also sought their feedback regarding their take on the service that the ER team was providing. The PDC directors were really supportive of the project and provided a huge amount of really useful feedback, some of which I was already expecting. But there was also quite a lot of feedback there that I hadn't considered, so it gave me a lot to work with.

Craig: Amazing stuff. It's all good in theory, and then you go to the practise side, I guess, a little bit further down. Margaret, tell me a bit more about some of the outcomes of your project and how you used some of this evidence-based data to measure, and implement, and look at some of these possible impacts that might have been ahead of you?

Margaret: Well, when I got the PDC director's feedback back, like I mentioned, there was so much there. But really, I needed to just hone it into what was achievable within the amount of time I would be doing the project. And that's why it was into these three key areas.

So the bit I want to talk about now is probably the most meaty section of my project, so I'll separate the three outcomes. The first outcome was about putting a process in place for the PDC team members to undertake temporary placements in the ER team. To measure the benefit of these placements, a series of surveys were completed by PDC team members before, during, and after their placements. The purpose of these surveys was to determine what impact the PDC exposure to the day-to-day activities and challenges of the ER team had had.

The survey before the placement allowed me to assess the baseline knowledge and expectations of the PDC team members by focusing on what they hoped to learn from their experience and asking them to conduct a self-assessment and rate their current knowledge on six key knowledge areas. The knowledge areas included rating their current knowledge, confidence, and capabilities on areas such as seeking and applying legal advice, information to be provided to the termination delegate, and the ER team's role in external jurisdictions, using a scale of 1 to 10. So these areas, in particular, was a lot of the work the ER team did that the PDCs really have very little exposure to. So I thought it would be interesting to see what they learned in those areas.

On the last day of their placement, I asked them to complete a subsequent self-assessment survey which assessed them against the same six key knowledge areas. By comparing their responses against baseline data obtained in the first survey, I was able to evaluate the extent to which they had developed their skills and knowledge. I also asked the participants to complete another self-assessment survey one month after returning to their PDC. This was particularly important to me, not only that the individual who participated in the placement gained knowledge and exposure to the operations of the ER team, but also that they shared their knowledge with their team members on their return.

The survey results indicated a significant increase in the knowledge of PDC participants across all areas of the ER team's work. The average improvement for the participants was 129% and 41%, respectively. The one-month post placement survey results showed that the PDC participants were directly applying their knowledge upon return to the PDC, and also sharing what they had learned with others. Overall, the results indicated that a really positive outcome was achieved and that PDC placements in the ER team should continue.

The second outcome involved the ER team members job shadowing with the nationally-dispersed PDC teams by travelling to sit with them for a few days. To assess the impact on the ER team's knowledge of the day-to-day functions of the PDCs, I also used a mixture of quantitative and qualitative survey questions. The surveys were completed by the ER team members pre- and post undertaking the visits, and some examples of the questions included, what are the assumptions about what you will have exposure to while visiting the PDC, and asking the participants how they would rate their knowledge of the PDC's business line they support before and after their visit, again using a 1 to 10 scale.

Comparison of the pre- and post-placement surveys indicated a significant increase in the strength of the relationships between the ER and the PDC teams, and that the exposure to the daily activities of the PDCs gave the ER team an appreciation of the breadth and issues the PDCs deal with on a daily basis outside of the complex case management, which is primarily what the ER team dealt with. This was further supported by emails of appreciation received by the PDCs following the visit of how useful they found them and how it was really great to be able to show the ER team members the actual day-to-day work that they do.

The results strongly suggested that undertaking PDC visits was successful, and the ER team did acquire the intended PDC and business knowledge and were also able to apply it on their return to their teams. Consequently, the flow-on effects of the ER team gaining business knowledge through this exposure was that the business lines were then provided with high-quality tailored advice. It was also a great opportunity for the PDCs to meet with the ER team members face-to-face. The agency's senior leadership are now supportive of these visits occurring on an ongoing basis.

Craig: Yeah, tell you what. It's terrific when you get the buy-in from the executive here, isn't it?

Margaret: It is. It really helps. [LAUGHS]

Craig: Well, that's true. It does. And the face-to-face aspect as well. And I reckon it would have been a great opportunity, also, that you're taking your respective PDCs, or People Delivery Centres, and your ER, or Employee Relations types, out of a comfort zone-- for example, from Canberra-- going on a little excursion, wherever that might be and, vice versa. And you're exposing them to a completely different kind of lifestyle, workplace, whatever it might be.

Margaret: Exactly right.

Craig: Was that the case? And was that part of the drive behind doing the visits?

Margaret: It was, because some of the ER team members had spent time in PDCs in the past, like I had. But often, that had been many years ago, and things change a lot.

Craig: Yes.

Margaret: So I think, I suppose, a bit of a reality check for the ER team, seeing the PDCs talk to managers and employees all day, and having those really challenging conversations, whereas the ER team would predominantly be speaking to PDCs, or to the legal team, or to the agency's executive. So really different stakeholders they were dealing with on a daily basis.

Craig: Yeah, amazing stuff. This is really good. Now, one of the last outcomes was the creation, I understand, of a referral process for the People Delivery Centres to use when referring matters to the Employee Relations team.

Margaret: That's right. So I felt that the process needed to be more streamlined and make it easier for PDCs to escalate complex matters and seek advice from the ER team. This resulted in me creating a new case referral template, which included some example text and also a referral information sheet.

A lot of the consultation with the ER and PDC teams went into the development of these resources. This involved working with the ER team to ascertain what information was required when PDCs sent through the referral in the first instance. For instance, it needed to have a timeline, that the attachments were clearly labelled, that relevant performance and health documents were attached, et cetera.

I also worked closely with the PDCs to find out where they felt uncertainty with what documentation that ER team expected them to provide, such as some of the feedback from the PDCs was they didn't want to overwhelm the ER team with information, they didn't know how far to go back in their timelines. So out of these discussions, I developed the resources.

So to measure the effectiveness of the new templates, a data tracking sheet was developed where the ER team tracked all referrals received by the PDCs to understand the volume and quality of the referrals over a two-month period, before and after the new templates were put in place. The qualitative feedback from the ER team confirmed significant improvement in the referrals being sent through, which resulted in much less rework by the ER team and time wasted chasing information. In addition, the PDCs also reported that knowing exactly what information to provide to the ER team up front was really useful and saved them time. And consequently, they were then receiving advice more quickly back from the ER team.

Craig: Sounds like the old saying, "measure what you treasure."

Margaret: That's right.

Craig: And that's exactly what you've done here. Took a little while, got it up and running. You happy with those results?

Margaret: Very happy.

Craig: Very happy?

Margaret: I'm no longer in the team, but before coming here today, I did touch base to make sure that the anecdotal feedback is still the same in that they're finding the template to be really useful. And across the board, they said that it's still creating a lot of efficiencies and saving time on both sides.

Craig: That's a terrific outcome. Yeah, and Margaret, was there a component or recommendation that you made that ended up not being a viable option for the agency due to factors that were, perhaps, say, out of your control?

Margaret: Well, there did actually end up being one, which was the result of the travel restrictions with COVID. So as I mentioned earlier, one of the outcomes that had been really successful was to have the ER team members visit the PDCs where they're located around Australia. But because of the travel restrictions, they've all been suspended. Hopefully, they'll start up again when we're able to travel again-- obviously, dependent on budget as well. So I suppose that would be one of the main things. But fortunately, the other outcome, being the PDC team members being able to spend time and actually work within the ER team, those placements have been able to continue, and they've done some virtually, which has been really good.

Craig: That is good. And finally, what advice would you provide to others looking to tackle an issue like this in their organisation?

Margaret: I think one of the things would be not just to assume that anecdotal evidence is-- well, to really only use that as a starting point and not assume that it's definitely factual. In this case I made sure that I actually went to the source of the stakeholders to really support that the anecdotal evidence I'd been provided with was accurate and to make sure that, throughout the project, that you're continuing to consult with the key stakeholders.

And I think the other thing would be that it's important not to assume that solutions to problems need to be overly complex. As demonstrated through my project, the simple solutions can have big benefits.

Craig: They certainly can, and we're grateful for your time. Thank you for sharing all about your project with us.

Margaret: Thank you.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Thanks for listening. Remember to join GovTEAMS to find out more about the APS HR Professional Network. It's a great way to connect and collaborate with your HR colleagues.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Hello, and welcome to a podcast series for HR professionals across the public sector, highlighting innovative projects that are making a difference.

Craig Moore: Kylie Saines is the Director of Workforce Management at the Australian Bureau of Statistics. In her role, Kylie leads the Workforce Management Section and is responsible for a broad range of the ABS's People Services activities that enable and support ABS business areas to leverage and maximise expertise across the workforce. Kylie is a certified HR practitioner who brings extensive experience in leadership and driving customer service and innovative solutions for workforce pressures. She has extensive experience managing large and diverse teams in people services, change and project management, and information technology.

Kylie is known for understanding the needs and behaviour of customers and being able to deliver products and services that they want. She also has a very strong service ethic and client focus, both internally and externally. She is passionate about effective teamwork and relationship management and believes that utilising diversity and inclusion strategies and high levels of staff engagement are critical to business success. Welcome, Kylie.

Kylie Saines: Thank you.

Craig: That's very impressive. Where do you find the time for all of this?

Kylie: Oh, I think it's probably the vintage of my birthdate that allows us to build up some experience over those years. [LAUGHS]

Craig: Well done. This is really, really good. And we're so grateful for your time to talk about your project with the Australian Bureau of Statistics, or ABS, because we just don't have enough acronyms going around--

Kylie: That's right.

Craig: --at the moment. So look let's kick off-- a bit of background, if you like. What's the role of the ABS and how you fit in with all of this?

Kylie: Look, thanks for having me in the first place, and I'm really happy to be part of the HR profession and this first podcast series. I wanted to talk a little bit about the ABS to provide some context to people when I talk about the project, and, actually, what we do there.

So we roughly have about 2,500 people who work for us across nine sites-- so every capital city, and we also have a Geelong and Dandenong office as well. And what we really do is the data that we get from government, and business, and community actually helps us to inform public policy. Things that you would be familiar with, like unemployment rates, our electricity prices, CPI, decisions that go into education, for example. So I think everyone can resonate with those types of things that we do.

And of course, we have our important census that we run every four years, and 2021 is our next census year.

Craig: You can never have too many census.

Kylie: Indeed.

Craig: Now, Kylie, what about workforce planning, though? Let's be a bit more targeted here, something that's very near and dear. What is workforce planning in your space, if you like, and why do we have such a value and importance placed on it?

Kylie: Workforce planning in the ABS, if I can get some context around that, it's really about both an operational lens, but a strategic lens-- so that longer-term view. And look, when we talk about workforce planning at the ABS, and what I advise people to do, is that the business don't really care whether you're talking operational or you're talking strategic. What they want to know is, how do I manage my workforce?

So really, if you're looking longer-term you're looking around how we look at the people, and the strategies, and our inclusion, how we monitor our workforce over the longer term and what we need to do. And then, in a day-to-day sense, what's happening with our staff actually informs what future planning that we need to do. And, of course, we do our quarterly reporting on that and, also, monthly reporting in that space. So that's just a little bit of context but basically, what it forms from is our business planning, matched with some HR strategies, gives you some workforce planning for the future.

Craig: So what was the starting point for you? Let's go back a little way. And this body of work, or this project, if you like, Kylie, what was the trigger for you to get it going?

Kylie: We had immature and inconsistent workforce planning practises across the organisation, and we really had very siloed approach to this. So even things like our data extraction for HR metrics were really manual, and we delivered them quite retrospectively. There was a lack of confidence in our HR data by our executive and a lack of cohesion with data across other HR systems-- for example, finance data, just matching that with people data. And the big issue for us is we actually had no workforce planning tool or process to gather any business intelligence in place.

Craig: Wow.

Kylie: Mm.

Craig: That's a good place to start, isn't it?

Kylie: That's right, that's right.

Craig: Let's go. And you've got--

Kylie: Houston, we have a problem. [LAUGHS]

Craig: That-- well, you said it. But I think it's tremendous to hear, though, that you've identified now, you've got this vision.

Kylie: Yeah.

Craig: That there was a gap, if I can use that word. There is a gap. And you've gone, OK, I've got this vision. I reckon I've got a solution here, or what, maybe, I'd like to achieve. Won't happen overnight. We keep saying that as part of this podcast series with a lot of these projects. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. So you've identified a bit of a vision. So you've already planned or mapped out, if you like, the endpoint, or the solution?

Kylie: Yes.

Craig: How did that work?

Kylie: It was a really interesting exercise. And I had a little team that worked with me. And we just whiteboarded a whole heap of questions.

And we just looked at, well, what data did we have? What would our baseline look like? Where are our vulnerabilities? Do we even understand what our vulnerabilities would be? And then we needed to identify, what areas did we need to focus on?

Because, obviously, we couldn't solve everything in one small project. And we really wanted to have a lens that would inform our risk. So what sort of risk do we have to our workforce? We wanted to be able to have this vision where we would know the capability that we would need for our workforce and the shift in those capabilities that we would need, particularly with the external environment, with the technologies, and with the rate of technology change and pace.

I wanted to have this really high-level analytical and reporting capability. So I wanted to be able to tell the story around the data. So the data is data, but what does that information tell us? Where is the richness in that that can tell us where our vulnerabilities are, that can tell us we need to grow those, et cetera?

I wanted to be able to regularly provide some insights in the reporting to our executives so that they could make better decisions. I wanted to be able to input better into designing our workforce. What could that look like in the future? Not what should it, but actually, what could it?

And actually, one of the things which I strove for greatly was actually for not just HR to have accountability of this, but actually for the executive to have some ownership and accountability for the workforce. So this is not just an HR problem. This is actually us as managers, and us as a key executive, really investing in and understanding the importance of these for business outcomes. If we have happy people-- there's an old saying, "happy wife, happy life." Well, I think in an organisational sense, if we have happy people, engaged people, dedicated people, then we're halfway there to getting the business outcomes.

And, of course, the final vision I had was actually, I wanted to become a custodian rather than an owner-- so a custodian who's able to share data and help others to grow in that. So it's quite a big vision, but that was it. We thought we'd reach for the goal there.

Craig: Yes, reach for the stars.

Kylie: That's right. [LAUGHS]

Craig: As it were. That's a terrific vision. And that's terrific to hear that-- you can see what you wanted to achieve for the ABS or the Australian Bureau of Statistics here. But were there some challenges in getting executive buy-in, or was there any cultural obstacles, the usual people matters, as you were developing this?

Kylie: Yes. So I might just go into a little bit of background on the project and what we covered, and then some of the guiding questions that I use to help me work through that as well. So just as context, so when I started this project, we were in the middle of a major transformation programme and looking for new efficiencies right across the business. Like many other organisations, we've got budget constraints. We've all got the imposed average staffing levels that we need to work with. And we needed to be able to be better and more efficient in the way that we actually moved our staff around.

So in addition, what we were facing was increased competition across not only our government counterparts, but actually in the private sector, for our ABS staff. Those STEM-- so the science, technology, mathematical skill sets and experience-- were in high demand. The other thing that was driving this was that I was seeing a difference in people's work preferences, the values and norms impacting our staff, and not having this data to inform recruitment strategies or understand, indeed, whether we actually had a perceived flight risk or a real risk was key for me to understand. I wanted to be able to use the data and the information around career progression and promotion of mobility opportunities and how we best utilised our staff and our people, to our highest priority work, whilst we were still grappling with those external drivers such as the technological change and the pace of that, and all while we were doing major transformation and changing systems and processes.

So there was a key question for me about how the ABS manage its workforce and prepare for the future. And that question actually identified a clear deficit in how we were planning, or lack of workforce planning. As I mentioned before, there was a lack of trust in our HR data, and the business did not have any capacity or capability to respond to any of these external influences, the changing business requirements, and nor the ability to collaborate and mobilise our workforce rapidly.

So what I looked at was a way of how we would provide timely and trusted workforce planning information that had some evidence-based behind it, and that I could provide some recommendations to inform our senior executive for decisions about strategies right now, but going into the future. So the issue around this, like any government department, is that the ABS efforts, we all need to continue to deliver public value. And to do this, we need to know where to invest in attaining and building our expertise in our people, and, in our case, particularly the statistical expertise to ensure that we could deliver our goals of continuing to deliver trusted and reliable official statistics with that.

So to do this, to assist the business leaders to identify the workforce implications of their current and future business strategy, I went about a number of questions and interviews with key stakeholders, including, at the time, David Kalish, the Australian statistician, and our CFO, and a number of other senior executives. And the guiding questions were really around, what are the game-changing strategies to address any of the risks, any of the issues or workforce disruptions that they were facing? So basically, what was keeping them awake at night? And generally, it was people issues. And are we doing the right thing in the right way to position us for the future? And what is the impact on our people, on our expenditure, and delivering our legislative purpose?

So having those conversations, what I wanted to do was talk to them about how we would advance and embed workforce planning in practise. And so that meant, how would we engage and work with the business to help prioritise that investment and implement some tangible actions to help manage those risks, and for people to deliver their business outcomes in which they needed to do.

So to do that, I needed to deliver a workforce planning tool which I call the One Source of Truth. So that Source of Truth is aligned with finance data, produced the information to inform and guide those decisions, and I wanted to be able to deliver clear analysis and commentary around the priorities that would inform and support prioritisation of investment into people strategies, and, indeed, our workforce around that.

So going on to that a little bit more, what we did is we really needed to confirm the current and emerging issues with the business. So what were those changing workforce profiles? What were the preferences of the business? The preferences of the staff?

Look at what data we did have around attrition. Is that a healthy rate to have? Is there more people going out the door than we can actually attract? And, actually, how do we manage risk through succession planning, through mobility, and through career pathways? And prior to this project, we were unable to do that.

So as part of this project, also, what I wanted to do for not only the organisation, but for HR, was actually to build our own capability in workforce planning, into managing our workforce challenges, and really to provide that foundation where we could put some scenarios together on if we got user funding, for example, and we needed to have a surge capacity, and we needed to bring 50 people in, or do we take them from another part of the business? How do we do that? So to do, that we needed to ensure that we had a combination of disciplines working with us on the project. And that was people from finance, people from our technology area, our own data analytical people, and those of us with HR skill sets.

So part of our work that we did with the stakeholders was to assist business leaders identify for themselves what that might look like. So I'm going to talk a little bit more, though, now about stakeholder engagement, which we talked about a little bit earlier. And due to the size of the change and the implementation that I wanted to do here, the stakeholder engagement and consultation was really held on a representative basis. And what I mean by that is I couldn't go and talk to everyone, but I wanted to make sure that I had representation across all levels-- so from your APS levels, to your executive level, to your senior management level. And what this did was help us understand and build the messaging on the need for change-- what the benefits of the change would be, and also, at the same time, to garner support for the change, all whilst addressing some of those key questions or concerns that the stakeholders had when I talked through those questions before about what we needed to understand.

So the stakeholder engagement approach that I took included, really, two components, and the first was really gathering and building on the internal knowledge and intelligence about the existing challenges and those perceptions of workforce planning in the ABS, and to develop a clear understanding between the stakeholder group for the need for change and build partners to implement whatever that change was going to be when I got there as a new service entry point for us.

So the second was really about building on existing relationships with key stakeholders to ensure that their people, and their resources, and their reporting requirements were clearly understood and were being addressed in the scope and the development of the workforce planning practises and the reporting via the workforce planning tool that I was building with this.

So that talks about the two components-- the gathering and building, and the building on existing relationships. But the real goal of the engagement was to build on those existing business intelligence that I had, increasing the partnerships and working relationships, and use any of those insights, and that expertise, and the knowledge of the partners across the business to build capability in workforce planning, and, in particular, the development of the Workforce Planning Tool, or my One Source of Truth, for HR metrics to inform us how we could efficiently and effectively manage our workforce.

So these meetings really consisted of short, 30-to-60-minute discussions. And some people might say 60 minutes isn't so short, but once you know me, you know I do like to have a conversation. But the meetings had a set agenda, but were also informal in nature. And what I did was gather information to inform what our outputs could look like. So I had my vision to begin with, but actually, I needed to validate with the business of what those outputs should look like.

So to help assess what people's understanding of workforce planning was, I developed a set of guiding principles to gauge an understanding of where the heart of what people's issues and risks were important to them. So I wanted to see participants, or whoever I was interviewing, their initial reaction to these questions to gain some insights into what they believed the health of workforce planning was, and also their role in what that was in their own capacity in workforce planning.

So I think the important thing to note here is that there was no right or wrong answers in these. What I was merely trying to do was see what the viewpoint was, and if we saw that there were any triggers that might bring us some answers for a robust and healthy discussion on what this could look like. So what this allowed us to do was to put the spotlight on and analyse some of the assumptions the organisation was operating by in managing their workforce, and by researching and responding to this set of questions.

And for example, the questions included, do you know what your people risks are, and do you know what to do about them? And quite often, there was a pause. And sometimes, it was like they felt they needed to know the answer. But actually, when I said, there's no wrong or right answer here, this is hard, their conversation flowed quite nicely.

So what we were able to do when we got those answers and that feel for what people's issues were is we were able to hone in on those issues and risks to make sure that the workforce planning tool that I was building could actually help us identify and provide the data to give us the information to answer the questions relating to these key concerns that the business had. And more specifically, for the broader work that People Services Branch does in identifying appropriate recruitment and professional development strategies, to ensure that we knew, for staff, both now and in the future, how we needed to be to equip ourselves to manage these risks and issues.

So I know I've been talking about stakeholder engagement a lot, but I just think it's really, really important. And this engagement with APS levels, with senior levels, with middle management actually provided the context and insights to be able to influence, and also understand the external environment, and acknowledge that we are living and working in a world of increasing complexities and demands on our workforce.

And I think over the last three to four months, indeed, we can all attest to that in the COVID environment. And one of the benefits that we've had out of having this project in place is we've been able to know where our staff are, know what our capabilities are, and actually respond and mobilise our workforce quite quickly. Some two years ago, we wouldn't have been able to do that without this project.

So in addition to the business representatives, the project team met with key players from the Finance and Governance Branch, my peers in the People Services Branch, and, in particular, the Strategies and Inclusion and Pay and Leave sections to make sure we were sharing our intelligence and to understand the relevant business information and/or implications towards putting together a coordinated and integrated approach for developing the workforce planning tool.

So to be able to truly enable capability in organisational workforce planning, we needed the sum of all those parts. And really, the strategies in the inclusion section, in the pay and leave section, the finance section, were actually instrumental in working with me to drive this project. And the benefit of this was actually, this resulted in even stronger and newly established collaborative behaviours that previously existed.

Craig: It's a marvellous story, Kylie. It really is, and what a tremendous project. Statistics would be really happy to have you.

Kylie: Oh, I hope so.

[LAUGHING]

Kylie: I do enjoy working there. It's a great place to work.

Craig: OK, but I can hear you say-- can I also ask, as I said, tremendous what you've been doing, you've been able to implement. Do you do a regular review or a bit of a fine-tune or evaluation?

Kylie: Yes, yes. So it's interesting you say that. So I talk about the outcomes and some of the benefits. But actually, yes, we do. So six months in, 12 months in, 18 months in, absolutely doing a review. And I think what we actually got from this during the benefits is we actually got the One Source of Truth, and it's now trusted. So we've actually got data-driven decision making. We have increased confidence of the senior executive in our quarterly publications and our monthly publications. And I know that our general managers actually meet around the table on a regular basis with their programme managers to talk about this, and I know that our deputies also look at this data as well and make sure that their general managers are really looking at their workforce as well.

The other thing here what we've benefited from is the increased collaboration within People Services branch, the increased understanding of the business across People Services branch, and increased capacity to properly manage the workforce and focus on workforce planning, rather than be transactional, as well. And also, we now have documented evidence where problems exist and need to be addressed across the HR systems that can inform future investment down this. I envisage that we have a continuous process of shaping the workforce to better equip ourselves to manage, to inform our future HR strategies and our priority. And I have this little diagram which you can't see in front of me, but it's actually a build-test-refine. It's a continuous process.

So what we've brought from that, the outcomes is we've got this great new format of-- and I hate the word "HR indicators," because really, it's around we have this great format for telling a story around our people. We have a general manager divisional snapshot with the workforce profile, so they know, they can put their hand on the pulse of what's happening with the workforce. And it identifies the hot spots for action in that. And there's insights which tells them, where should I put my attention to?

And we also now have the capability to do a workforce mix and scenario modelling which provides an overview of the current workforce mix, and it allows us to actually apply different workforce scenarios. So you can look at your projected supply, what your recruitment might need, by what numbers you might need, and, of course, that ever-important affordability and the assumptions that you can make around that. So that's been a wonderful exercise, to come out at the end of this and actually come out with those outcomes.

Craig: And what a great way to wrap it all up with that. That's such a great story, and thank you for sharing it with us on this podcast.

Kylie: You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Thanks for listening. Remember to join GovTEAMS to find out more about the APS HR Professional Network. It's a great way to connect and collaborate with your HR colleagues.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Hello, and welcome to a podcast series for HR professionals across the public sector, highlighting innovative projects that are making a difference.

Craig Moore: Louise Pozzebon is a passionate human resource professional. She's got 18 years of experience working in the APS and a broad experience across a wide range of HR elements. And these include workplace relations, including negotiating enterprise agreements, developing policy and associated guidance across the full spectrum of HR. She can resolve complex policy issues for other HR professionals and customers.

When it comes to diversity, well, she's pretty good at that, too, in relation to Indigenous Affairs and developing a Defence Reconciliation Action Plan. Further to that, she's got some workforce reporting and metrics experience, including extracting data reports and analysing metrics, HR ICT systems, working within the system as well as in designing future business requirements.

When it comes to industrial relations, well, this includes union engagement and assisting with fair work cases. And if that's not enough, there's complex case management involving medical, performance, and code of conduct elements. It's fair to say that Louise prides herself on building high-performing teams and coaching others to realise their potential. Louise, welcome.

Louise Pozzebon: Thank you, Craig.

Craig: When do you actually get up and draw for air with such a broad range of experience? That's amazing.

Louise: I have been very lucky to have lots of diverse opportunities within the 18 years that I've worked with the Public Service and been given the real challenge of, really, stepping into lots of different roles that I really didn't think that I would have been successful in, but luckily was.

Craig: That's excellent. And we're going to get to hear a bit more about some of those experiences as part of this podcast. Your project was improving the return-to-work outcomes in Defence. I tell you what, that's got to be a challenge and a half.

Louise: Everything's always a challenge, but it also raises opportunities.

Craig: OK, well, tell us, then. How did you get into this? What's your role, in terms of a bit of background here?

Louise: So I'm the director of APS Rehabilitation, which sits within the Defence People Group. And my role, really, is to look at those strategies to reinforce our position in supporting our people and having a safe and healthy workforce.

Craig: Now, when you commenced the role, I understand there was a bit of selecting and some undertaking with the AHRI capstone project.

Louise: Correct. So I actually came into the role at exactly the same time as I was about to commence the capstone programme for the AHRI certification. And so I had to pick a project that I was going to be able to undertake that was relevant to the work that I was doing. Interestingly, though, I was commencing a new role in an environment that I wasn't a subject matter expert. I hadn't been able to build an understanding of the team, the dynamics of the team, or the skill sets of the team. And so with that, I had to think about what would be a business outcome that would be useful for that part of Defence.

Craig: So you set yourself up with a very nice challenge.

Louise: I did. I did indeed.

Craig: Well, there's probably-- I would say there was once a time that none of us knew anything about our respective roles and whatever, and you've just said, look, OK, it was something new. But you welcomed the challenge.

Louise: I did. And I was hoping that the experience that I'd developed over the time prior to coming into that role would actually bring a different perspective, a more broader HR perspective, and, hopefully, some components that would be useful to the team.

Craig: OK. As far as Defence is concerned, as we know, I mean, it's got a huge APS workforce. So it's not just a small audience here. You've got a big crowd.

Louise: Absolutely. Defence has a public service workforce of close to 17,000.

Craig: Wow.

Louise: Which sits within a broader workforce of 80,000 when you add in the ADF-- or the Australian Defence Force-- component to it. So it's quite a diverse workforce, spread geographically across Australia, but also internationally. And it covers a range of occupations, from a scientist studying rocket fuels, through to our office-based workforce or our logistics workforce working in our warehouses, getting supplies from one end of the country to another.

Craig: Yeah, I would imagine logistics would be huge.

Louise: Absolutely.

Craig: Speaking of huge-- budget for Defence, that's massive.

Louise: Massive budget. $37 billion budget.

Craig: Wow.

Louise: So yeah, significant expenditure for the government. So obviously, they want a high-performing and productive workforce.

Craig: I daresay they do. And this is where it comes back with your objective, your main objective about your AHRI project. You were there to identify some of these opportunities to get this return-to-work outcomes for the Defence APS employees.

Louise: Yes. So one of the cultural elements of Defence is supporting the health, wellness, and safety of our workforce and ensuring that we have established behaviours that ensure people are looking after each other and looking after their staff.

Craig: So you identified that you need to do this. This is a nice little body of work. It'll be not unfamiliar to-- I would imagine that you could transfer it, or something very similar that's happening elsewhere. But Louise, in your case, in your circumstances, you had to identify, what was the main problem, or what did you want to achieve? What was the outcome at the end?

Louise: Yeah.

Craig: You're not going to go to bed tonight, wake up tomorrow, problem solved.

Louise: No, not at all. And I think it's probably fair to say that there had been a wicked problem across the organisation for quite some time, that tension between what's the HR role in returning those people who may have been impacted by illness or injury back to work, and what was the role of the manager and the employee? And I think that what had been raised was this medical restriction barrier, where someone might go to their doctor and express a view that they couldn't work with a certain individual or within a certain location. And some of the challenge with that was around, well, how does the department address that restriction?

Craig: So it's just more than just, here's a medical certificate to say, I can't attend the workplace.

Louise: Yes, exactly. It was, I can't attend the workplace if I have to work with Person X or in this specific location. So with that presents the challenge of, well, whose role is it, then, to return that person to the workplace? And how do you do that in the context where we've got resourcing constraints, we have limited opportunities to just discover new roles, and how do you manage the expectations of the employee and the manager about what that might look like and who takes what role? Who looks for the alternate position, the alternate duties?

Craig: I was going to bring up about the alternate duties, because I mean, that, in itself, is a challenge. Because if the staff member can't work with person X, as you've said, you could say, well, we'll go and put you over with person Y. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work out either. You've talked about logistics before and about how massive that is in Defence.

Louise: Yep.

Craig: And if there's a person missing out of that chain, or that kink, if you like, it all breaks down.

Louise: Absolutely. And I think that from a perspective of wanting to assist the customer-- and in an HR sense, we would see the manager and the employee as a customer-- traditionally, HR would say, OK, well, what can I do to fix this? What can I do to resolve this issue?

And I think the interesting thing for me was, at the commencement of my designing and scoping what my project would be, my thoughts went straight to, what's the solution? Oh, we need to have a redeployment system that allows HR, predominantly, to identify alternate duties and alternate positions for employees.

And so that was an interesting piece to work through as part of the project. And I guess that's probably one of the components that has been the greatest learning for me in relation to pre-determining the outcome and, potentially, also looking only at the effect, the symptom of the problem, rather than the root cause of what was actually the barrier for that person to be effective and productive at work.

Craig: How about culturally, though? Is it-- were there cultural issues that had been around that were presenting, itself, a bit of a challenge?

Louise: Absolutely. I think that that's the piece around, how does HR have a conversation? How do we, as HR professionals, engage in the business? How do we have a business conversation with the manager about their role, their accountability? What's their leadership role in actually managing their staff and actually looking after their people, which was a fundamental premise of the Defence cultural perspective?

Craig: I daresay there was a huge sense of frustration.

Louise: Yes.

[LAUGHS]

Louise: I think so. I think frustration, probably, on both part. So frustration from the HR professional's perspective, because they could understand that this wasn't, necessarily, what their role should be in looking for alternate roles for someone. They could see that they could add more value, actually, in resolving what had led to the situation in the first place.

Craig: Well, I can imagine that sometimes, it's not going to align.

Louise: No.

Craig: You kind of alluding to the fact that you said yourself, you just were looking at the solution, but it wasn't going to happen overnight, kind of thing. So there's individual behaviours that you've got to deal with-- staffing, allocation of resources, as you've alluded to. So really, from your HR perspective-- and you've got your HR glasses on here-- you think, wow, I've really got a big project here. And this is where you've gone, right, how do I get these people back on track?

Louise: Absolutely. And I think the main learning from actually undertaking it through a capstone project through the AHRI certification programme was actually testing my own assumptions and understanding that I needed to actually find some data, some evidence, and really delve into that research component to understand, what was I looking to address through the project?

And I think what was really interesting is through that, actually, identifying that the metrics and the reporting element, to understand what was driving some of those behaviours, really hadn't been fleshed out extensively before, particularly in Defence. I'm not suggesting that it wasn't done elsewhere in other agencies, but particularly, that was what was evident to me in coming into the role.

So it was really trying to understand, what metrics could I use? What could I actually delve into that was going to give me an evidence base to actually build some of the project outcome deliverables?

Craig: OK, so this is where you adopted a case management approach with all of this?

Louise: Yes. So that was what, I guess, came up quite quickly as I was scoping out my data research, was that there was another part of the organisation was also looking at a project on case management from an HR perspective. So that's looking at it from what was happening in performance management, in code of conduct, in our fair work matters. Did we have a clear picture of who was engaged and involved in that? And what were the outcomes that they were seeking to achieve?

What was interesting for me was that it really uncovered the silos that existed in the organisation, in that, all with good intent to succeed and achieve great outcomes, each of the areas were working independently.

Craig: And that's just never going to work, is it?

Louise: Just never going to work, because an individual's situation is probably going to cut across multiple areas. And so it was about looking at, did we actually have a clear shared understanding of what case management was? And so the opportunity presented that we actually aligned both of the projects to actually understand where there was overlaps and potential duplication happening, and how could we enhance that integration across the HR operating model?

Craig: Wow, that's just amazing work, to think that you're going to do all of this, and then you're going to sell it to everybody and get that buy-in.

Louise: Yes.

Craig: So once you've come down the track and you've applied bits and pieces as you've described, what have you learned from them, and have you had to change some of the approach going forward?

Louise: I think the main thing I learned was to really reflect on whether or not I was going into a conversation with a preconceived outcome or a preconceived idea of what the solution should be, and to really test that with some of the tools that exist to actually delve right in to what was going on for that particular stakeholder group, and how could we actually test some of those assumptions. So using tools such as the five whys-- so asking "why" five times, so you can really get down into the detail of what was going on.

I guess, also, designing some of the questionnaires around, what was the customer experience in relation to their interactions with the different components of the HR system? And also, within our HR network as well, what was everyone else's thoughts and ideas around that? How did they see their work integrating to drive, I guess, a more value-add piece and to be a bit more curious about what we were collectively trying to achieve?

Craig: So you've always adopted a bit of a project management-based methodology in this one.

Louise: Yes.

Craig: So you've had a bit of a focus on some research. You've got some evidence. That's helped you to really focus and pinpoint that outcome that you talked about earlier that you were trying to achieve.

Louise: Absolutely. And the interesting thing that, through that, discovered that the barrier in relation to a medical restriction for someone was actually quite insignificant to some of the other barriers that were identified. And that actually, if we could have had earlier identification of the potential barriers, we would get more successful outcomes.

And one of the key components to that was having really clear expectations and accountabilities up front. So the main component that came out of the research, both quantitative and qualitative, was that if we set the obligations and the accountabilities up front and had those conversations about what the business impact would be, then actually, we were going to probably not get to a point where we had to redeploy someone due to a medical restriction.

Craig: That's an amazing body of work that you have been able to do. It's amazing to listen to. And I think what probably drives at most is that I can hear this passion with you to make this happen. And if you didn't have the passion, we wouldn't be here talking about it. Would that be a fair call?

Louise: Absolutely. The passion, is a personal passion to want to achieve the best outcomes for the business, but also for the individuals in the business, but also a passion to help my colleagues, also, reflect on and look for the opportunities to really enhance the value that HR brings to the organisation. And I think that comes with actually recognising the importance of understanding the business and being able to communicate with the business-- so with managers-- and actually bring the HR component into that business conversation, rather than having an HR conversation and then trying to bring business into it. So it's a bit of a flip on--

Craig: You're almost a bit like a negotiator, aren't you?

Louise: Yes. [LAUGHS]

Craig: But a good one. [LAUGHS]

Louise: I do try. I do try.

Craig: Well sounds like. I think-- what's been the acceptance to it though, from when you first started to where you are now with Defence? Is the take-up good? Is it positive? Is it happening? Is it what you really are looking for when you first started?

Louise: Absolutely. So the great thing has been by actually applying this business impact, I guess, assessment tool that really looks at the risks around the individual matters that come into the HR space, and then collectively looking at how we consolidate our reporting and understand how we're all working together, what we're seeing is quicker return-to-work outcomes, less disputation around the outcomes for the individual and for the work areas, and, actually, more engagement across our HR spectrum.

So I'm actually seeing more and more active engagement on a daily basis from my team across the HR services teams, which are our front-of-house engagement, our business partners who engage at a strategic level, and then with our other centres of expertise, who look at our workplace relations, our code of conduct, our complaints. And that really has allowed for my team to actually identify their growth, their ability to actually influence and engage in other parts of the business and add some value to it.

Craig: We've talked about it earlier, about the cultural aspects to it. And you've got the evidence now to say, you can see that cultural change.

Louise: Yeah.

Craig: There is that reform that is in there.

Louise: Absolutely.

Craig: I can tell, also, by the big smile on your face that you're really proud of what you do, which is tremendous. Just finally, AHRI certification, tell us a bit about that at the moment. Where is that at?

Louise: I think the provoking way that you engage in some uncomfortable conversations through that programme-- so there's some uncomfortableness in testing your own assumptions about your capability, but also, there's the learning that comes from actually being uncomfortable and the relationships and networks that you can establish. I mean, that was one of the most challenging and testing times, but actually one of the most rewarding, and fun, and beneficial times in my career so far.

Craig: Well done, congratulations, and thank you for sharing your time with us. And what a great story about improving return-to-work outcomes in Defence.

Louise: Thanks, Craig.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Thanks for listening. Remember to join GovTEAMS to find out more about the APS HR Professional Network. It's a great way to connect and collaborate with your HR Colleagues.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Hello, and welcome to HR in Focus, a podcast series for HR professionals across the public sector. In this series, we continue to share and highlight HR best practice and innovative ways we are uplifting capability in public sector organisations. This podcast has been recorded remotely during COVID lockdown.

Craig Moore: Professor Deborah Blackman is the Head of the School of Business and Professor in Public Sector Management Strategy at the University of New South Wales, Canberra. Deborah is a member of the APS HR Professional Streams Working Group, adding a valuable academic perspective to the group. When she's not actively sharing her expertise on the integration of systems and people, she's busy teaching Public Sector Strategy Management at UNSW, and juggling various research projects through her work with the Public Service Research Group. She's kindly taken some time out of her busy schedule to be with us and share some of those insights with us today on HR in Focus. Welcome, Deborah.

Deborah Blackman: Thanks, Craig. It's great to be here.

Craig: So, when you're working with a group, what do you think are the most important things to think about at the outset for project success?

Deborah: Well, it's easy to say that we know what success looks like, but it's amazing how often we don't actually talk about it at the beginning of a project. And so, what we do is we really try and say to people, OK, what do you think that word means for this group at this time? And more importantly, if we were watching people at the end of whatever this project is, how would we know, how would we be able to identify new behaviours, different things that are happening? And that helps us then work out what we would be measuring. Because if we're not careful, we start out with a preconception and we start to look for the wrong things.

And I'm going to give an example. We've been working with a range of organisations. And one of the ones I've been working with recently is the ATO, hence the invitation to here. And I was very fortunate to be part of the development Professional HR Stream. And so, one of the questions that you'd think about is, well, how will we know if that's actually been effective? And obviously, you might say, well, there'll be more people in the HR area. Well, that's OK. But that's what we might describe as a lag indicator. It's something which we look back on, but it's not telling you if anything thing's actually changed. And so, one of the things you're looking at is, well, why do we want a professional stream? What is it that we think will be different because we have a professional stream? And those were the kind of questions that we were asking ourselves. If we have more profession, then it will be that there will be more trust in the ideas and people will come to them more quickly. So, when we were doing some work on business partnering, we said, what we need to look at is, when do people engage the HR business partners? Are they coming because it's already been a problem and now they're coming because they can't think of anything else to do? Or are they coming right at the beginning because they know that they are a trusted professional human being who will be really helpful, and so, they want their advice right at the start? That's what you want to be seeing, all of those kind of things. Where were they invited to take part? Which committees are they invited to as opposed to, oh, I suppose we'll have to include them? There's a whole different way of thinking about them. And that's what we were talking about. It'll be about seeing how the business reacts with them and interacts with them. And that's how we'll know we're being successful. And once you do that, then you say, OK, what does that mean? Well, obviously it's about the development and the training of the HR profession, but then it's also about how do we develop them and support them that they know how not just do HR, but work with the business. And that's a different set of skills completely. And those are going to need to be important as well. So, I think it's about really thinking upfront, what will it look like when it's working?

So, my favourite questions are always, what will it look like if it's working and why could it not be other? As in, why should it be done this way, not another way? And asking people to have those conversations, which they often assume. So, one of the things that happens is people go into a room. They have a long conversation. They're very busy on getting things done. And you know what it's like? We all have meetings and we want to make sure that we do the things that need to be done, and do it as efficiently as possible, and get off the zoom call as it is at the moment, and get off the team's call. But actually, it turns out that everybody was having a different conversation. One of the things I love to do when I'm not chairing, obviously it's different if I'm chairing. But if I'm at a meeting and I'm not chairing, I'll sometimes say, can everybody just write down what we are actually talking about? What this would look like if it was working? And they kind of sigh at me. And I go, no, no, let's take knowledge management, or business partnering, or HR profession, or whatever that core thing is we're talking about. Can we all just write down what it means? And they all again sigh at me. And then we write it down and then we share all of those. And we realise that however many people in the room, all very busy having a conversation, but not about the same thing.

So, it might sound obvious to ask these questions at the beginning, but actually, they're really important questions, and they’re ones we don't ask often enough. And it's about slowing down to speed up. It seems that it's gonna be slower because you're having conversations about why we are here almost, but in the end, it means you only have to have the performance conversations later once, because everybody's on track as to what it's going to be about. So, I don’t know if that makes sense. But hopefully, that's a good place for us to start.

Craig: Now, I know you talk about measuring movement and I've heard this great saying, you should measure what you treasure, but what does it really mean and why does it matter?

Deborah: OK, well, it matters because as you said, measure what you treasure and the other one of course is, you get what you measure. And the situation is if we set measurements and we set targets, that's what people aim for. So, when I was asked to have a look at the implementation plan for the professional group, I was saying, OK, some of these things we can control. So, one of the problems with measurement, and I tend to like indicators as a word, rather than measurement, it shouldn't be about the default setting about numbers, but people tend to get that way. So, you'll see measures, which are things like, well, we should make sure that 80% of a group is trained. At the moment we've got measurements for COVID, x number, now, that's great because we know what that does. So, it's good to have a measurement of 80% or 90% because we know that by having that measurement, it's actually an indicator of something else. It's an indicator of potential safety, potential movement, potential what will happen with the health service, et cetera. But what we've got to think about is that measurement, a useful one.

And the reason I talk about movement, is there's a tendency to measure what we think is going to be the output. So, how many people we're going to have trained, or it might be about if we do this, we think we'll have greater retention. I mean, our retention measures are big in organisations. And you think, well, that's lovely, but that's quite a long-term goal. How will you know if your system is going in the right direction? And so, one of the things about thinking about movement is about saying, right, we need to see if things are moving in order to be able to say, are they going in the right direction? So we can pull something back sooner if it's not doing what it needs to do. So, I often ask people like, how will you know if there's a shift? Not the endpoint, but how will you know if you're going in the right direction? Because if you don't know that, if you haven't got indicators around that kind of movement, then you can go a long time before you realise there's a problem.

But on the other hand, you don't want to have things where... There's a very well known story about quality improvement in one organisation, and they spent an enormous amount of money on putting in a new quality improvement process. And they said, it will take three years for this to work. But what they didn't say is by the end of year one, you should see x happening. And by the end of year two, you should see this happening. And so, they got a new CEO, the thing, and they said, well, has it worked yet? And they said, well, no, they told us it would take three years. Well, how will we know if it's working? Well, we won't really. So, the whole thing got pulled out and they did another one because nobody knew what was going to be happening on the way, with enough confidence to wait three years in case it will work. So, that's why movement's so important. It's about saying, how will we be confident that if we wait longer, something that we want is going to be the outcome?

Craig: Kind of reminds me of another little liner, if you want it badly, you'll get it badly.

Deborah: Yes, yes. You've really got to be very sure that the way that you're setting up your measurements is the thing that you want. So, one of my colleagues, Professor Sharon O'Neil, does a lot of work in the work, health, and safety areas. And she talks a lot about useful indicators in measurements, and things that are not. So, for example, one that is loved by many, many people is downtime, injury downtime. And she said, Well, that's great, but that only gives you a tiny percentage of things that are going wrong, where actually somethings happen so that people can't work. What about all the things that could actually be creating all sorts of other issues but aren't part of that? And are in fact, probably having a much bigger impact on the organisation. And she asks them to try and think of other indicators. Now, they find that much harder, because of course, downtime is really easy to measure - we couldn't work for this period of time. And that's one of our problems. It's the problem around training and development.

We can easily tell you how many days you've been trained. It's much harder to tell you if it's had any impact on behaviour. And so, that's why if you're not careful, you go, oh, we've done 15 days of training. And you go, that's lovely. Did anything happen, except everybody had a nice lunch? What happened? What is different? And that comes back to movement. How will I know if they're bringing that development, that training, those ideas? How will I be able to see that when they come back?

And also, when you're thinking about movement, are you giving them space to create movement? One of the things is people come back and they go, oh, they didn't use it. And you go, well, fine. But how did you help them do that? And again, the reason I like the analogy of movement is sometimes you have to give things a bit of a push to get things going. Is it reasonable to always ask the individuals to do that themselves? Or do you need to say the reason why we've asked you to become a professional or we've asked you to do development is because we think it'll be useful.

Now, how do we support you to become part of that ongoing change, that ongoing movement? And so, it's about whose - accountability for these things is a really useful thing to start to think about.

Craig: Great example with the indicators. And, I suspect Deborah, that there's no one size fits all.

Deborah: Absolutely not. And that's part of the difficulty. You can quite understand that even inside an organisation, people would like things to be consistent. But that's assuming that all the parts of an organisation are the same. And yes, one size does not fit all.

One of the useful things I think is to think about the context that you are in. And we tend to think, for example, people talk about health or government as a context, and that's true, but actually, it's more of a professional in industry. What's for me, a more useful way of thinking about this, is to start to say, well, what kind of activities are we doing? How timebound are we? What type of resources, both financial and human, do we need to be able to do this? Do we have those resources? When we say that people are our most important asset, for example, are we actually treating them that way or not? What are the ways that we can demonstrate that? So, what are the constraints? What's the context that we have in this particular situation and what does that mean for how we can implement something?

One of the things that I advocate very strongly is being very careful as to whether we really need a new policy or structural change, or whether what we need to do is say, we need to think a different way of implementing what we have. And the advantage of implementing what we have differently, is a, it's much less time consuming, but also you are much more likely to be able to build on strength. So, you can start to say, right, what have we got that is working? And then how do we make that stronger? And how do we encourage people to start to behave the way we want to, they're much more likely to do if we build on strength versus continually saying we don't like that, we'd like something else.

So, if we think that way, if we think about our context, our current situation, we can then implement a new way of working more effectively. And we can see that with what happened last year with COVID. It was amazing how people took what they were good at and made it work in a different context because they were given the freedom to do that.

Craig: Yeah. I was gonna ask you about COVID and in the way how we think. Because it was kind of like out of nowhere left field, we hadn't really kind of, in fairness, prepared for something and yet it's probably made us a bit more innovative and challenged us in our ways of thinking. Have you noticed anything specific?

Deborah: Yes. It's a really interesting one. And the answer I think is yes and no. So, I spent quite a lot of last year being asked, now that things will never be the same again, what will happen instead? And I kept saying, well, I'm not convinced that it will never be the same again, unless we want it to not be the same again. And that might sound like an odd thing to say, but we have heard organisations talking about needing to snap back, or go back to where we were, or get back to things. And the minute you hear those words, you know there are issues. So, there's no doubt that we have the potential at the moment to work very differently.

I was involved with a project which was looking at new ways of working, which is a really important thing. But people keep defaulting to what I would describe geography - how many days in the office? How many days at home? Should people be in the office? What are those constraints about being flexible? Flexible tends to be end up being about where rather than when. And so, new ways of working, if we're not careful is defaulting to geography, location, as opposed to actually, what have we learned about the nature of work and what would be done better together, and what actually do we really not be together for? So, there's one organisation that we were talking to when we were doing the project, and they've run out of space at the office. And rather than getting a bigger office space, they've said, right, what we're going to do is one team's coming in for two weeks and another team stays at home and then they're going to swap. And so, what they then do is they say, right, what is a really important work that we need to do together as a team for the two weeks when we are in the office? And then what are we going to prep everybody to be able to do when they go back home and get those things done so they can come back together? So, they change the way they talk about their work and the way they plan their work. And they found that it's much more effective for them 'cause the thinking work gets done when people need to go away and think, then they come back and they do the integrating, the discussion. And they've changed the way they measure the outputs. So, coming back to measurement, it's less about how much have you done this week? It's more about, are we ready to do the next thing? What will the output need to look like to be able to move to our next stage? So, a very different way of thinking about how they work. And so, I think what COVID has given us is a huge opportunity to talk about that.

The ACT government, for example, is looking very much at different ways of supporting flexible working. It's got new knowledge worker focused hubs. How does that work? The Department of Health have gone for activity-based working. But theirs is really different because a lot of people do that and they want to restrict the number of seats. Actually, they've got more than ever, but they want to encourage different ways of coming together. So, I think the answer is we're in this opportunity where we could do things, but it will depend on what people want to do.

Craig: Look, some fabulous insights there, Deborah. And I think the challenge is there particularly for those, for example, who are working from home. So, it's a bit like, well, we change our thinking, we still get to where we need to be, we can see the outcome that we want to achieve. It's a bit like saying, well, I can't go from a to b, but I'll go from a to c, and I'll still get it done.

Deborah: I think for me, one of the things I was thinking about when you were kind of recapping about flexible working, one of the difficulties in all of this is if we're going to have new ways of working, if we're going to have new success factors, all of those things, the people who have to work the hardest, and everybody thinks it's a senior leadership, and they do have to work hard. But I do think we have to really focus on our middle management layers. Because they are the people who are doing the majority of conversations with their teams. They are the people who are trying to change actual practices everyday. And so, they're the people who are actually finding new ways of working, working flexibly. They're the people who are having to not only find their own way of working, but they're having to help their team do the same thing. And a lot of the time, there's an assumption that they can do that without necessarily really talking through what does this mean? What does this look like? And it comes back almost to the beginning. What does success look like? Success for new ways of working, success for the HR professional group, all of those things will be dependent on really supporting the mid-layer of the organisation, to know what you want to be different, why you want it to be different and how are you going to support them to enable that? So, one of the difficulties for many people is that they've often been promoted because they're technically very expert, but they've not necessarily got a lot of experience around managing people. And then suddenly, that's got actually considerably harder. And it's not because people don't do a great job at home, because they do, but it's because we've got to rethink, how do we know they're doing a great job home? And so, there's quite a lot of differences in, again, back to indicators, how are we going to talk about outputs and indicators and all of those sorts of things, when historically we have this lovely assumption that if somebody was in the office doing a lot of work, it was all going well? Maybe, maybe not. But now, we can't make that assumption. And so, what are the conversations that people need to have to be able to work with their team? What are the conversations they've never had?

The people, when they hear me talk about this, are, oh, you mean the difficult conversation? And it’s not - the people when they hear me talk about this say “oh you mean the difficult conversation” and I say no, I don't mean the difficult conversation. I mean, any conversation that is something that needs to have a clear outcome. Doesn't have to be difficult. But it's about saying, let's talk about this before you do it. What will this be like? Why will it be like that? How are we going to do these things?

And coming back to the professional stream, it would be about saying, well, what is it that we want from our HR professional stream? And how will middle managers, for example, feel better supported if we have that? What does that look like? How can we support them to then know what to ask for? So, I think that's a really big issue as we move forward.

Craig: Professor Deborah Blackman, thank you very much for your time and your insights. Grateful for being part of our HR in Focus series.

Deborah: Thank you very much.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Thanks for listening to HR in Focus. Remember to join GovTEAMS, to learn more about the APS HR Professional Network. It's a great way to connect and collaborate with your HR colleagues.

[Theme Music]

Voiceover: Hello and welcome to HR in Focus, a podcast series for HR professionals across the public sector, in this series we continue to share and highlight HR best practice, and innovative ways we are uplifting capability in public sector organisations. This podcast has been recorded remotely during COVID lockdown.

Craig Moore: In this edition, we'd like to introduce Simone Keenan from the Bureau of Meteorology. Simone is the general manager for Organisational Development, or OD, which is a program that sits within the broader Enterprise Services Group. Simone is responsible for leading the people and culture function, and related activities at the bureau, particularly as they pertain to workforce design and planning, talent and leadership, and the employee experience. Simone. Welcome.

Simone Keenan: Thanks very much, Craig. Great to be here.

Craig: We are loving to have you here, and we might even actually start off while we've got you. Share with us the journey that you've been on, to arrive at your new service delivery model, which is the topic of our podcast today.

Simone: No worries at all. Well, look, I guess it's important to start with the journey that the bureau is on. And so, we're currently pursuing a really comprehensive integrated transformation to drive, you know, a significant increase in the impact and value that the organisation has for the Australian community. And so, this transformation is very much underpinned by the bureau's technology and people. So, the OD program has a pivotal role to play in the bureau's delivery of its transformation agenda by providing a strategic and innovative approach to workforce capability, and to enable the efficient and effective delivery of the bureau's products and services, whilst also ensuring that our customers requirements remain at the heart of everything that we do. So, we're also really mindful of the significant reforms that have been signposted for the Australian public sector, which really is calling for a more dynamic, responsive, and connected approach to delivering outstanding services to the Australian community.

So, facilitating an outcomes-focused workforce with a greater capacity to innovate, collaborate and use data and technology more effectively is certainly a key driver for how we need to move forward here at the Bureau. So, things like post-pandemic workforce trends, the global changing nature of work, transitioning to knowledge-intensive and less structured roles, enabled by an increase in automation, and digitisation are factors that are impacting our workforce. And so we need people who have the full range of competencies to do their job with the workforce mix that really pretty much reflects a range of employees, including contractors. So, the OD program has been called upon to really help develop and execute workforce planning activities, whilst also embedding workforce design and planning capability within the OD program. The OD team needs to be front and centre when it comes to supporting the workforce to effectively deliver products and services so that we do transform to a customer-focused organisation, embed those required capabilities, the culture, and connections, and ensure that we do deliver an outstanding customer experience.

We need to help people to deliver to customer expectations on the basis of their operating environments and business models, and through activities like training and education, which OD leads. You know, we just really need to focus on that workforce of the future and also create meaning and purpose for employees along the way.

Craig: Oh Simone, that is a massive agenda that you've got, but let's go back a little bit. What was it about the existing service delivery model that wasn't working?

Simone: Yeah, thanks, Craig. Look, it is a massive agenda, and I think that's what's so exciting about being part of the bureau's transformation journey at this point in time. But yes, certainly with respect to what wasn't really working. We were arguably operationally excellent in the delivery of our transactional services, but there were concerns around the existing HR structure and capability to deliver a strategic value proposition, one that was contemporary and reflected true partnering and a deep understanding of business issues and challenges. We had a vested interest, obviously, in being able to lead the conversation when it comes to defining the future workforce in support of the bureau's significant transformation agenda underway through thought, leadership and practice. So, in order to address that perception, we conducted an independent review, and that review sought to examine current OD capability and the strategic alignment. It also sought to see where we could increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the bureau's HR service delivery model, both from an internal and external perspective. It identified necessary changes within OD, to help with the function to play a more strategic role in support of the bureau's immediate and longer-term needs. And also, the review examined relevant public and private sector HR functions to identify contemporary, best proactive approaches to delivery from a strategic perspective in this space.

Craig: In this case then, Simone, that independent review was quite a big challenge, and a lot of areas to take in. So, what actions, if any, at all here, did you take as a result of the findings, if you like from that review?

Simone: Yes. I think what's great about having an external review is that, whilst you can often be defensive to these things. I mean, I did see it as a real opportunity just to sort of lift that rock and really just, yes, shine a spotlight on the OD program just to see, you know, how we could improve. And so, following those review findings, we established the OD transforming project, which pretty much kicked off on the 1st of October last year. We formed that project in order to implement the associated recommendations from the review. And so, the project team consisted of a dedicated project manager and a change and comms lead, as well as key members of the OD leadership team. We followed the bureau's project delivery model and a project schedule was developed. Look, we also established project principles that guided our thinking in practice, and we set up a regular cadence of meetings based on an ambitious timeframe of six months to transition, which required us to review the milestones on a weekly basis. Look, the usual detailed plans, risk register, and documents were developed as part of that project governance. We certainly ensured that there was early and ongoing engagement with key stakeholders, including bureau executive and senior leaders, and we provided regular OD program updates just to ensure that the communication of our progress was well understood. We held a number of workshops with OD program teams just to understand their practice reality.

And, you know, for those of us who were really into Brené Brown, she says that daring leaders say the unsaid, unsurface what's been pushed down and bring to light the stuff that's in the shadows and corners. And that really resonated with me because I was really intent on making sure that we did surface and make visible all the work that the team was doing because we had so many doorways into OD. And so, so much of what we were doing and where our time was going was visible. And so, this was going to be an opportunity to redirect activities and requests through a front door, so to speak, in order to create the necessary capacity to deliver strategic activity.

So, we also developed a HR model of excellence and mapped activities and tasks to the model. Initiation and mid-projects surveys were undertaken just to measure their understanding, desire to change, and just the impact of the change within the OD team. We developed learning pathways for the OD team, which included a focus on capability development utilising AHRI training, LinkedIn resources, and Prosci Change Certification. And we reviewed service channels, developed a service catalogue, and also an uplift of Cherwell ticketing functionality, as well as the self-service options. So, you know, there was a lot to do as a result of the review, but it was really great to be able to leverage those recommendations.

Craig: That is so many actions. That is phenomenal. But what I like about it, though, I'm sure you do too, Simone, that, you know, you had this vision and you were prepared to go for it. And maybe even come up with some core principles that you were working to.

Simone: Yeah. Look, I have to concede that, you know, we kept coming back to the principles as part of our compelling case for change. We socialise those within the team and also at the executive level, just to make sure that you know, we would stay true to the change that needed to take place and make sure that we were always sort of open and had that growth mindset, I guess. But things like creating a proactive, customer-centric operating model, designed around contemporary best practice approaches to deliver OD services that would, in turn, prepare the bureau for the future. That was an important one. Enhancing the digital self-service capability within the bureau just to enable an increased and sustained capacity for employees and also our people leaders to engage independently with resources and find answers to questions. We were really keen to address the learned helplessness that had developed over the years through the extent of hand-holding that had been going on.

Another principle was to ensure that any disruption to the status quo, didn't become a barrier to making decisions that improve the future state, just based on that required capability to realise the strategy and transformational objectives of the Bureau.

We wanted to provide a clear, evidence-based picture of the future state and a compelling narrative to alleviate boundaries and drive that organisational, value add. We included the need to strive to minimise disruption of core activities and services where possible, whilst we were undertaking transition activities. And of course, being OD, we absolutely were committed as an OD leadership team to ensuring that a people-centred approach to the implementation of the change was front and centre for us. You want the hearts and minds of your people when you're doing these things, but you also, as an OD team, want to be benchmarking best practice when it comes to change. So, I definitely felt the pressure to perform in that context.

Craig: Yeah, I was just going to say no pressure, no pressure at all on that one. Terrific principles. But I dare say and you'll probably confirm this. There would have been some challenges along the way, here Simone.

Simone: Yeah, absolutely. Look, we had issues like IT limitations. Look, it's fair to say that the bureau has aging IT corporate systems that didn't really allow for the automation of any of our existing processes. And so there was no real net gain to the transactional nature of what we have to do.

There was also no additional funding to assist with the change or uplifting capability requirements. So, the resource footprint had to remain the same. But we did have project management and change capability to assist us with this transition, so that was really helpful.

The adoption of a new approach to engaging the OD team was of particular concern because what we were doing was proposing a move away from being purely relationship-based, which included person dependencies to a strengthened systems and processes-based approach to practice. We were also worried about changed fatigue and you know, as I mentioned at the outset, a lot of transformation is happening at the bureau. So, balancing business needs and the additional change that we were imposing seemed like a lot of change for both stakeholders in the team to be dealing with. We needed to remove that existing dependency on key staff. That was a key objective. And we also had to consider how we would mitigate that risk from a people partner perspective.

New roles were being introduced without prior experience, or to previously defined capability expectations. And so, it's fair to say that on-the-job training as we deliver really is our current practice reality, and we also had to make sure that we mitigated any potential for disruption in services. We certainly needed to ensure that we still delivered to BAU activities uninterrupted, and importantly to the same high quality as before. And part of the consultation process when we're going on this journey was feedback from key members of the bureau executive who said, you know, Simone, you've got to make sure that that bread and butter is good. You know, that you're operating really effectively before you start offering activity over and above that. So, that was absolutely front and centre for us as a team.

Craig: Well, Simone, take us through some of the actual changes to the model.

Simone: Yeah, sure. So, we in effect moved from a four-pronged sort of siloed functional model to a teams-based approach to delivering products and services. So, the teams include people connect, people solutions, and people partners.

So, People Connect is the front door for dealing with all workforce-related queries. So, for example, paying conditions, workplace issues, reporting, and quality assurance, so, much of the BAU resides in people connect.

People solutions really is the hub which develops our strategic products and services, and they assist people partners to drive our strategic people and culture agenda just so that people leaders can, in turn, assume role in authority when it comes to their people management obligations. And people solutions also develop products to common questions or issues that come from the analysis of ticketing activity within the People Connect team.

And then our third group, People Partners, they're actually aligned to senior leaders in the business, and they adopt a coaching approach to their practice with respect to strategic initiatives and interventions in line with our key themes of workforce, design, talent and leadership and the employee experience.

And so, we're really working hard behind the scenes just to maintain the integrity of this particular role, just to ensure that we don't end up doing any of the work for them.

Craig: Fair call. Simone, I heard you use the word transformation earlier. So, what would you say would be some of the main challenges you faced while you were transforming?

Simone: Yeah, we certainly understated activity mapping. So, there's a continuing review of processes now that the model has been established just to ensure that we've got the best fit within the model. So, we probably should have allocated more time to teams to actually do this work in readiness for the implementation timeline. I think we have a spreadsheet with some 800 items that actually need to be mapped as an indication of the task. So, you know, we definitely understated that.

Conflicting priorities, you know, supporting transformation activities across the bureau while we ourselves were transforming, you know, it was a big deal. Resourcing levels, you know, the model needs to be implemented based on the existing staff establishment. And with the exception of the project manager and the change and comms roles, we needed to ensure that BAU wasn't interrupted whilst establishing the new model and we were dealing with staff absences. You know, COVID overlays, recruitment needs as well as having to deal with person dependencies that had developed through the old functional model.

The adoption of the new approach when it came to interfacing with OD required a change in behaviour across the bureau. And you know, as we all know as HR practitioners, behaviour change is the hardest change to get. A cross-section of our workforce, both leaders and employees continue to leverage on the basis of existing relationships. And so, we've had to learn to say no in a really nice way and just redirect traffic, so to speak, in line with the model. And because there was no upgrade to existing OD systems, there was no reduction in transactional activities. And so, we had to be really creative in terms of just, you know, creating capacity through the model design and also the allocation of resources. We needed to make visible all of the interactions and requests through email, phone, Teams, messaging, et cetera. And accounting for these as a ticket in the system has required increased confidence in the team just to push back on stakeholder requests by insisting that they engage with our new approach.

So, it's not been without challenge. You know, I've got to say that the workforce has been really supportive of the OD transforming project, and I've had really great support from my group executive just to help champion that at the broader executive level.

Craig: I was going to say, how important is that to have, that buy-in?

Simone: Oh, yeah, it's absolutely critical to have that executive support, no doubt about it.

Craig: Plenty of challenges there. Out of it, though, Simone, were there any like key lessons, if you like that, you could share?

Simone: Yeah, sure. Look, I think the standout one for me is probably developing the service delivery model and defining the vision or the intent of the model before you actually design the structure. So, that really helped us with our decision-making in terms of resource alignment. And I think because activity mapping and that process review just took longer than anticipated, members of the team weren't always confident with the model and it impacted role clarity. So, that was a valuable lesson in terms of getting that activity mapping done sort of before you're ready to launch in or transition to your new model.

Remaining aligned to the project principles certainly assisted with the decision-making and the reinforcement of the need for change. Early and regular engagement and the involvement of our EL1 cohort, was also important in terms of the development of the model and structure. And this allowed the OD leadership team just to test the assumptions and understanding of the model at that level because we were really relying on our team leaders to work really closely with our staff at the front line to translate what we were explaining about the future state model.

Understanding industry, best practice, and remaining aligned to this has really enabled the delivery of a future-proof model, and that was certainly important to the CEO and members of the executive. And taking a disciplined project management approach with strong governance certainly allowed for visibility of progress and enabled us to take corrective actions when we needed to.

Craig: There are some great key learnings because they really are, but from that, clearly are also looking for some benefits. Have you managed to realise any benefits as a result of the transition to the new service delivery model?

Simone: Yeah. So Craig, this is the ultimate test, right? You know, what benefits have been realised? And I think it is fair to say that, you know, as a result of the development of the new OD service delivery model, we certainly have a more targeted and strategic approach to the required products and services that we need to deliver. So, we're really aligned to the business need and challenge, and we're able to support people leaders to plan and develop their workforce for the future and just help lead that transformational agenda from a workforce perspective. We've certainly created capacity within the existing OD staff establishment by just shutting down all of the entry points into OD that once existed to reduce that to one front door. So, we've redirected workload and we're delivering in line with service level agreements, and importantly, we've established a level of transparency and improved the ability of OD managers just to allocate and monitor workload more effectively. I mean, the work hasn't gone away, right? But we're able to be in control of what's coming in and give that due priority.

We've developed an OD model of excellence and a HR professional capability framework, which is an enduring strategic framework that describes seven core HR capabilities. It certainly represents what OD practitioners should know and what they're expected to do and what behaviours and capabilities are required for all roles within the OD program at the bureau, not just now, but also into the future. And so that really does draw upon the APSC work level standards, the Integrated Leadership System, and AHRI in terms of industry best practice capabilities for OD and HR professionals. And so, by lifting the engagement and improving the employee experience for the OD team just through that clear articulation of the future-focused HR capabilities, it's given them a visible career pathway that didn't exist previously. And so, that's been really impactful and also an opportunity for learning and development through our multidisciplinary approach to practice.

So, you know, generally speaking, it's been really well-received and now we've got, you know, individual team members within OD saying, OK, Simone, you know, when it comes to performance review and development, you know, review, we want fully articulated a career plan. So, it's great because they're being really proactive about driving that now because they can see that really clearly within the OD service delivery model that's been created. And naturally enough, there's huge benefit for the broader bureau in terms of us being able to pivot now just to, you know, absolutely support that transformational agenda, which you know, is significant for the broader Australian community. So, yeah, it's been fantastic. It's been really good to be able to lead this particular project at the bureau and have such great support of my leadership team and obviously bureau executives.

Craig: It's a great story Simone. I could hear how proud you are to be associated with it. How lucky are you?

Simone: Yeah, very lucky. Now, I feel like I'm in a privileged position because this is a once in a lifetime sort of opportunity to be in an agency like the bureau to be exposed to this level of transformation and change and actually apply your skills and have those skills tested in a really rigorous, robust way. You know, it's not without a lot of pressure, but I think it's the thriving on the pressure, being in that pressure cooker situation that's giving me so much satisfaction.

Craig: Well done to you and to everyone at OD, or Organisational Development. I think as a general manager. As I said, you can be very proud of what you're doing for the Bureau of Meteorology. I'd almost probably go as far as to say the forecast is looking good.

Simone: Yeah, it's a beautiful day in Melbourne.

Craig: Hey, Simone, great to chat, and thank you for being part of our podcast series.

Simone: My pleasure. Thank you so much, Craig.

[Theme Music]

Voiceover: Thanks for listening to HR in Focus. Remember to join GovTEAMS to learn more about the APS HR professional network. It's a great way to connect and collaborate with your HR colleagues.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Hello and welcome to HR in Focus, a podcast series for HR professionals across the public sector. In this series, we continue to share and highlight HR best practice and innovative ways, we are uplifting capability in public sector organisations. This podcast has been recorded remotely during COVID lockdown.

Craig Moore: Hello, everyone, and this time around, we're chatting with Kylie O'Grady who's the director of leadership, learning, and development at the Department of Health. And she's no stranger in this space, having worked in the APS for nearly 20 years at many departments and agencies, including Services Australia, Home Affairs, Comcare, Agriculture, and now at the Department of Health. Kylie, great to have you on board, welcome.

Kylie O’Grady: Hi, Craig, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here talking to you today about the APS HR Workforce Strategy and Action Plan.

Craig: It's a great body of work, you know it better than I do, but I know you're champing at the bit, you want to really tell us all about it, so off you go.

Kylie: Oh, thank you very much. Well, the idea of the strategy is really around supporting the establishment of the HR professional stream. It's a real forward-looking approach to connect HR professionals to grow their capabilities to develop rewarding careers and advance the HR service offering right across the APS.

Craig: Now, the Department of Health, I'll tell you what it’s been getting plenty of PR with COVID, but your workforce, it's around 5,000 most of which are based in the nation's capital, but you do have a presence across all the states and territories too. So, I'm not that I'm suggesting it's a challenge, but it shows that you've got this strategy that you've got to apply across the nation.

Kylie: Yeah, definitely. And, of course, throughout COVID, we have really had to pivot and change the way that we operate from a HR perspective, where we've had to, through the APS mobility program, bring in staff from other departments to help us to achieve what we need to do in Health's response to the pandemic. It is a key priority for the department, and we have really taken that opportunity to provide opportunities for staff to participate in one of our greatest tests of our health system since the department was established over 100 years ago.

Craig: Now, you mentioned about 100 years, which is ironic, because, you know, this is the greatest challenge that the department has had since it was established, you know, a century ago, back in 1921. And it's turned the world in which we live, work, socialise and play pretty much upside down, hasn't it?

Kylie: Yeah, it has. And the health system is fundamental in supporting our community to manage the impacts in these challenging circumstances. The pandemic has really tested our corporate functions and provided opportunities to embed streamlining practices in partnership with our core business areas. We're looking at different ways of working, because for a lot of us, it was lockdowns and pivoting to different technologies and different systems that we've had to really come from a people perspective of how do we still support people to be able to do their job and to be able to be the best that they can be in the circumstances that we've been in.

Craig: And I dare say, one of those great challenges, and it's not just your department, the Department of Health, but right across the APS is working from home.

Kylie: Yeah, definitely. For the Department of Health, almost 18 months ago following the bushfires, we had to pivot then to help our workforce to be able to work in a different way. But, the pivot to working from home for our department, we didn't have the technology at that point in time to be able to support that. And for people who were with children, home learning or caring responsibilities, it's been pretty tough. And the real prioritisation of mental health and well-being and providing that safe work environment has been really important for our HR area to be able to seamlessly work in different ways. And the department continues through its IT roll out programs to improve the services and the systems that are available for us to be able to do that.

Craig: You talk about IT and the challenges, I mean that's not the only one. In fact, I probably would look at it, Kylie, that some of the key priorities that are there, not just COVID, there are other aspects too, like aged care reform.

Kylie: Yeah definitely. And if I look at what the priorities are for our department, this is in addition to our day-to-day work. So, the priorities around the aged care reform package to transform aged care and ensure our senior Australians are treated with respect, care, and dignity, is a key priority, as well as mental health system in Australia. There's so much happening, not just within our workforce, but the whole community. And also the new national agreement on closing the gap, which will fundamentally change the way we work with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, emphasizing working together and in genuine partnership, which is also one of the key areas in the HR profession to be able to partner and collaborate and communicate what our policies and procedures are and how we respond to some of these critical issues that we face.

Craig: And what about your new ways of working program, tell us a little bit about that and how that's impacted with COVID.

Kylie: So, new ways of working at the Department of Health is a space where we're developing a modern workplace for our staff. So, it's shifted to a new footprint of the offices that we have and looking at how we can move to make the areas and the zones that we work in, actually work for the type of work that we're doing. So, from a property perspective, it is moving into new buildings, into new floors of existing places. And the HR role in that is to actually support people through a change management process. So, looking at change management, leadership, management, how we can support the managers and the staff transitioning into this new, this new way of working. And we are looking at a flexible culture supported by strong leadership and better technology, which is continually improving all the time. I don't think we would be where we are today, as a HR profession, if the pandemic really hadn't forced that change into thinking about different ways in that flexible approach.

Craig: So, as much of an impact that COVID has had on many people businesses and the like, it's actually probably as you've said, wow, if we hadn't have happened, we wouldn't have evolved in terms of the technology and how we deliver some of these programs.

Kylie: Yeah, definitely. The way that we are working, it's so innovative. I think that, you know, we're three to five years away, if this hadn't have happened for some of our technology and the way that we are now able to really collaborate with people through these online forums, like gov teams and networks, and really, you know, the days of having those networking events. They've gone digital, and you can be anywhere at any time and still join in. And I think that's really exciting to be able to do that.

Craig: It is exciting. So, is your involvement with the APS HR Workforce Strategy and Action Plan, I can hear the passion in your voice about this, Kylie. You love this stuff.

Kylie: I do, and, you know, as you mentioned, I've worked for many agencies, I didn't tell you all of them, but there's been a few. And my experience from being in more of a project environment to shift into HR, I made that decision. I moved from working with the privacy commission to go back and take my own career in my hands, and actually undertake some qualifications. I am an L&D practitioner, I've always thought that that was really first and foremost, but I work in HR, because I want to support the people who are doing the real jobs out there with what they need. And this HR workforce strategy and action plan is really the backbone of how we can take this forward, and into the future, we want that sustainable high-performing, flexible approach to HR. And we want to be at the table, we we want to be with the business and helping them to do what they need to do and get out of their way. And the more we do that, the better we can help them to achieve their objectives.

Craig: One of the things I like, and it's not unique to the Department of Health, but one of the things I really like, when it comes to these aspects, is that in this case, you want the Department of Health to be an employer of choice.

Kylie: Yeah, definitely. We want to be that employer of choice with a high performing diverse and flexible workforce able to be mobilised as needed and have the capabilities to be seamlessly identified and deployed. In particular, at the Department of Health, I think there's been a bit of a slow take-up for many of staff in our people branch, and I think this workforce strategy is a way that we can bring this to life and support people to be able to do the best that they can in their roles, but also look for the future for themselves. That question when you are in an interview of where do you see yourself in five years is always one of those tricky questions, because our careers are so long, and so why not do something that you love and really take it and own it and to really be the best that you can be.

Craig: I think in five years, I might be retired, but anyway, we'll see how that goes. (LAUGHS). But I get it and those listening will also be, yeah. I think you've painted that picture really, really well. But, you know, your people branch at the Department of Health, you've got about 100.. Is that right about 100 people who are working solidly as you've described to, you know, take this strategy and implement it?

Kylie: Yeah, definitely. So, the people branch ebbs and flows 100 people, and we're broken down by eight different sections within the people branch, and we have those titles of our sections of recruitment and HR reporting, and work health and safety and performance and behaviours. But the work that we do underpins all of that. And for the 100 people that we have, for our systems and processes, there's a real gap between knowing what our capability is and what we need to grow. And so, identifying our professional HR capabilities for the people branch workforce and implementing the capability development opportunities means that we'll be able to grow and let our people undertake their work with the right skills and experience, and really encouraging people to come up and out of the weeds of their day-to-day work and work more strategically and provide that HR advice or service that the end customer actually needs. So, putting the end customer or the other parts of the business before ourselves, because the impact of what we do in HR is actually on the people in the business.

Craig: We're chatting with Kylie O'Grady, and as part of our HR In Focus series, we're talking about this great APS HR workforce strategy and action plan as it impacts on the Department of Health.

Some of the key points that I think would be really nice to stress at this point, Kylie, is that as you've alluded to before, being in L&D, or learning and development, you really are all over the importance and you recognise that importance about continual learning and how it's so strong and so strongly links to what you do and those around you.

Kylie: Oh, definitely. And for me, I recognised in myself this, if I wanted to be a long-term HR professional, I needed to actually go and undertake some additional learning. And learning for me isn't always, you know, a qualification and in a classroom, it's different for everybody. And moving around different departments and gaining different skills and building my network, I like the idea that you can read an article, you can receive a newsletter, you can participate in all kinds of different activities like shadowing and mentoring that it doesn't have to actually be in the classroom. But the way that we're moving, it really helps when you have that qualification to be able to demonstrate that you have really studied the art of HR. And I'm currently undertaking the AHRI certified practitioners program, which is around two years, 18 months, two years to complete, which will allow me to be that certified practitioner. And whilst it's 18 months, I did start my unit four capstone project last year, but due to COVID, it was an additional load that I really couldn't take on board and moved into a different project this year.

And this year is actually quite timely, because I am really focusing on how we can implement the workforce strategy at the Department of Health. So, through that, I'm actually undertaking a training needs analysis of our HR staff within the people branch at the department and in line with the strategy to uplift the strategic HR skills in the branch.

Craig: That is amazing, that is so amazing. And one question that comes to mind on that, we'll come back a bit more to what you do but, you've worked in a large agency like Services Australia, alright, where there's heaps and heaps of staff and it's an agency that touches the lives of around 99% of the Australian public in some capacity. Then you come to a smaller, by comparison where you are say at health. Are there really big noticeable differences and what you do, does it help?

Kylie: Definitely. The difference in sizes working in different agencies, you do have, for example, in health, we have a 100 people working in other agencies, you actually may only be one of 10 people, and you have to support your workforce and you become a master of many different elements of HR. For me, specialising in L&D doesn't stop me from being involved in all of the other elements and providing expertise where it's required, but the difference in different agencies and different sizes can actually support your own development. The opportunity to work in lots of different agencies and gain that experience and undertake your own development through mobility gives you the chance to see how other agencies operate. If we're not actually going and physically meeting people and building our networks, it's hard to actually gauge that. And through our gov teams, network we're actually able to share information, ask questions, provide guidance, and it's all HR professionals wanting to do the best that they can and look for innovative solutions and look for where others have experienced some of those similar challenges and get to hear about that.

Craig: And being engaged with the APS HR profession is critical to the work that you do.

Kylie: Definitely, we're all in it together, right. We really are, and we all come to work to support our people and to be able to do that, you do need to have that experience. And it's exciting to see that we now have our APS HR graduate program in its second year, and we're about to launch our new school leavers program for building that capability of the future and having people come in who are similar in our approach who want to actually be a HR professional and practitioner. And starting from out of school and starting from people out of university, and then we have people who actually come to HR because they know that we can make a difference.

Craig: Being a people person like you are, really helps. I can tell. (LAUGHS). I think also, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think one of the great things that someone like yourself brings to the HR space, again, because of your own 20 years’ experience and the like, is that you know how important it is to be strategic, you've said it's important to engage with other aspects and agencies and, you know, ask lots of questions, you know, try some opportunities, because what might have worked say at Services Australia may not have at Health or Agriculture. It's so important that there's no one-size-fits-all here, Kylie.

Kylie: No, there's not. And the way of being curious and finding out what's happening across the APS, it's really important to come out of your day-to-day work and talk to people. It's the opportunity to try new things. For me, I am probably about a three-year person in each department, some I've spent a bit longer with and some a bit shorter with. But what I find is that the role that I'm in is an opportunity and a challenge. And what I'd aim to do is to grow it and to then let somebody else come in and make a new change. And I think that opens the door for mobility, but it also gives me the opportunity to get to know different departments and their business. And, you know, the services that we offer in all of our agencies, you never know when you're going to actually need them yourself. And I think having an understanding of what that can actually mean can really help you as a well-rounded public servant.

Craig: It's almost like you have planted the seedling, and then you're leaving it for someone else to come in, do the watering and to watch it grow. A little succession planning as well.

Kylie: Yeah, definitely. And that's not for everyone, I think, you know, we have long career public servants who've been in their role and they've mastered their role, but for me, I like to actually think about what it is that I can make a difference in, and then look for a new challenge, get out of my comfort zone, get out of my own way, and not doubting myself that I can actually go and make a difference somewhere else. The opportunities to try new things, participating in things like tiger teams and task forces and the opportunities for mobility and supporting all of our surge workforce challenges, that we've had recently, gives us such an opportunity to do things in a different way, be innovative, but let our people go and grow. And I like the idea of having a workforce that is supported by this strategy that actually encourages mobility, encourages self-learning and self-led opportunities. To grow your own capability and know that you're supported is one of the best things that we could have for the future.

Craig: What a lovely way to finish up. Great story, thank you for sharing. Terrific to have you on HR in Focus today.

Kylie: Thank you so much, Craig. It's nice to see you again.

[THEME MUSIC]

Voiceover: Thanks for listening to HR in Focus. Remember to join gov teams to learn more about the APS HR professional network. It's a great way to connect and collaborate with your HR colleagues.

Changing role of HR: future role of adaptive and flexible HR models leveraging technology, automation and responding to the “Volatile, Uncertain, Complex and Ambiguous” (VUCA) world

Jane Latimer: Hi and welcome to our first episode in the changing role of HR podcast theme. I'm Jane Latimer from the NSW Public Service Commission and excited today to introduce Jacqui Curtis, Chief Operating Officer at the Australian Taxation Office. As you will hear, Jacqui is a very experienced HR professional who's led the transformation of HR in several government agencies. Throughout the podcast Jacqui describes the key capabilities needed to build a highly credible, adaptable and flexible HR function that can create confidence and certainty in what is often a very ambiguous and uncertain environment. Listen out for her descriptions of what compromises key HR skills, including exceptional HR foundational skills, business acumen, curiosity, storytelling, workforce planning, people analytics and more. There is a lot to learn from this podcast. Enjoy.

Tanya Hammond: Hi I am Tanya Hammond, CEO of Talent HR Solutions, and I have the pleasure today of speaking with Jacqui Curtis. Who will be sharing her insights with us in relation to the future role of adaptive and flexible HR models, leveraging technology automation and responding to a volatile and uncertain, complex and ambiguous world. Welcome, Jacqui.

Jacqui Curtis: Thanks Tanya. It's great to be here with you and a fantastic opportunity.

Tanya: Thank you, our listeners will be very interested to understand a bit more of your background Jacqui and the current roles that you have.

Jacqui: I joined the Public Service in the early 2000's, I think, but prior to that I'd worked in private sector and in education, in business consulting and in HR roles. And I took that experience into the education space to become a sort of teacher and lecturer at Canberra Institute of Technology.

When I joined the Public Service, it was in a tiny agency, the Australian Public Service Commission, but a critical agency with a really big focus on people issues across the service and I stayed there for a few years, eventually made my way up to be an SES officer. And then I went to Medicare just at the time as it was being absorbed into a mega department which became DHS, Human Services. Eventually I looked after the people function there as a FAS before joining ATO, Australian Tax Office in 2013 as the Head of People. And I did that role, a very big role in people has about 10 SES officers and about 600 people, all in the HR space for an organisation which at the time was 23,000. And then later on got promoted to the Chief Operating Officer of the Tax office. It's been a really interesting career. And along the way I've always been a member of the Australian Human Resource Institute and a couple of years ago was made an adjunct professor at the University of Canberra for Public Policy and Administration. Bit of a mixed journey, but very exciting and very challenging.

Tanya: Thanks, Jacqui. You've also got a very special role, which is probably worth also sharing with listeners around the Profession. I understand you're the head of the Profession of the Australian Public Service?

Jacqui: I think it was about October last year so coming up for a year. I had just come back from a holiday in Italy with my husband, returned to the news that I was to be the inaugural head off the APS HR professional stream. And that's the first professional stream that's been established across the Australian Public Service. And it’s part of one of the initiatives in the Public Service review. HR was chosen because it was seen as incredibly important function to support and enable the service and its work force to be able to deliver on outcomes for the government and the community. They thought HR would be the one to kick off with as a professional stream and that's me, the head of that stream.

Tanya: And your COO role at the same time!

Jacqui: Exactly it’s actually a joint role really.

Tanya: Fantastic! And I guess over those years of your role in learning and the APS and also in your old role at DHS and in the ATO HR over that time, I imagine has changed a little. What's been your observation of the biggest changes that you've seen in the HR function?

Jacqui: It really has actually changed Tanya, when I think back to my early sort of career in HR, a lot of it was about making sure you sort of did all of those basic things really, really well. And I think a lot of it was themed around personnel management, payroll, getting the recruitment right, making sure that performance management was around but it was in its infancy. Really it was sort of the basics, and I think, and I've said this before a lot of the time HR was seen as those little ladies in the back office that did all those kinds of things and it didn't have a lot of status and a lot of profile. And of course, over the years, that has really changed significantly to where we find ourselves today in the public sector anyway, where it's actually been called out as a critical professional stream.

I would say in the most recent times in the last six months, in particular because of the bush fires that were experienced in Australia over the Christmas January period, and then leading into the Covid pandemic that really has seen the HR profession harness the opportunity that the crisis provided to show that they are really front and centre of and what enables organisations to deliver on the outcomes that they need to deliver. They really are critical and they are a very important function when it comes to crisis management because they create confidence and certainty in what is often a very ambiguous and uncertain environment for people where they need that concrete advice and the good judgement advice of good people, people.

Tanya: Thanks Jacqui and I think you've had a significant journey I understand in the ATO and in times led a fairly large transformation of the HR function. My understanding is the key component of the transformation was positioning HR so that the business had a genuine understanding of what they needed from the HR function and also the value that HR could provide to them. I'm really keen to understand and I'm sure the listeners will to, what key insights you can share with them around what you did and how the function was transformed. And now, if the evidence you use as a leader that demonstrates the value of the HR function to yourself and other leaders.

Jacqui: Let me just sort of step back a bit. I think I've been incredibly fortunate to have worked for some really inspirational leaders and three or four that I'll call out. When I was at APSC, Lynell Briggs was the Commissioner, and she really was future focused, and she could see the importance of things like talent and succession management to enable the workforce to really be high performing and effective. She sort of got me thinking about the future of things in HR and she was a little bit ahead of her time in many ways, I think the lots of things she was pushing then have come to fruition now. And then at DHS HR was given a pretty leading role there as well again Catherine Campbell, Barbara Bennett they were people that were leaders at the time, and they really did turn to HR to provide advice and guidance and deliver outcomes in the people space that would help them on their big, transformational journey. But they definitely weren't front and centre at that time. They were a key player and very valued.

The difference in the ATO and what sort of enabled HR to not only have a seat at the table but actually seen to be a key contributor to identifying and developing strategy for the organisation is that the Commissioner had a view that if you really want to bring about change, you can't just rely on changing processes, you can't just rely on having new equipment, etcetera etcetera or saying that you're going to change. You actually need the people who are in the organisation to drive that change, and in order for them to do that, they need to adopt the new practices. They need to know how to do that. They need to have the tools to be able to work in new ways, though he said change is all about people and therefore, rather than put the change function into a business area which is normally where change functions sit, I'm going to drive this massive reinvention and transformation programme out of the people space and to do that you need a people leader and people function that is highly credible isn't just focused on functional, very important functional, foundational elements of HR, but actually can understand the business, has really good business acumen and a commercial lens that it can bring and working partnership with the business, to look at things and say OK, if that's what we're trying to achieve for our clients, or the community, or government these are the types of things in the HR space and the people space that will enable us to do that. And later down the track as we got more sophisticated before even saying, well this is the direction and the outcome what can HR do to enable it coming to HR and saying we're looking at our workforce, looking at the environment and looking at the future, what is it that you think might happen that might change the way we operate or enable us to do something differently? And then working this strategy to use that as a key input.

And that's what's different at the ATO, and that is what I truly believe now is recognised across the APS by senior leadership and the secretaries. And I think this is why they've called this out and said, you know what we need a very high performing, expert Human resources capability and we need to invest in it. This is why things they're changing and they're changing rapidly towards professionalising and recognising the value that HR brings, I think that's what's changed. There's still a way to go because our history is that HR and some other corporate functions, this is true as well, have been seen as less a status. I suppose my vision is that in a few years time people will talk about Human Resources experts the same way they talk about legal experts or finance experts or any of the other professions that we really recognise in a front of mind.

Tanya: If you take that then to the work that you did in transforming ATO where did you start?

Jacqui: I think the most important thing to actually understand is what the capability of the HR workforce was and where the capability was. Because at that time there was a lot of capability in the central corporate area but there were also pockets of expertise in the business, and business had built that up because they weren't necessarily getting what they needed from the central HR function. So I spent a lot of time talking to the people in the HR workforce understanding what skills and, experiences they had. I wanted to work out what's the depth? What's the bench strength of the talent that we have and then thinking about okay, well, how does that then translate into being able to deliver on the true value HR can deliver, if you've got the right skills and expertise? I also talked to the HR workforce and the business because obviously you need to understand what they weren't getting and what they were getting. So strengths and weaknesses. But one of the things I found very quickly was evident was that there was quite low morale in the HR work force at the ATO and I have actually experienced that across the service. Sometimes I think the profession feels that it's sort of a bit used and dumped on and called on when there's a crisis or needed or there's a problem but not necessarily valued consistently, over time. There was a lot of work to be done in building the capability of that workforce and what I said to people at the time was, if you want to be on this journey with us and we've got a huge opportunity here and we've got a leader who believes in what we're doing, I need a commitment from you. If you haven't got the expertise or the qualifications or the professional depth of experience, you are welcome in this team, but you need to make a commitment to get it. And, if you do, the organisation will support you resource wise, your time, finance, whatever to take you on that journey with us because we need people who are committed to the outcome that we're trying to achieve. So that was the internal lens. A lot of people jumped onboard, invested in them and they've got qualifications and they joined up to things like professional associations, et cetera. Some people just it wasn't for them, overall it was a very big cohort of people that said, I'm on that journey. The other thing is I said a lot of time talking to the business, looking at the evidence. So sometimes what you hear anecdotally about the service is being provided or the quality of things doesn't ring true. And I started to build a business case that was able to demonstrate to people well, actually, this is a bit of myth busting. You're saying you're not getting good outcomes here and you're saying it's because you're not getting the right advice or you're not getting what you're looking from HR, but actually here is the evidence to show that's not the case. Or yep, we do have a problem here, and I recognise that we need to build their capability or expertise here. So this is what we will do, that was part of it. And that was making sure you could be confident as a leader that when you went to the executive table and started to talk about possibilities and solutions, et cetera you actually could deliver. There's no good going there with the best ideas, and you haven't got work force that can deliver on them. The other thing, obviously, was to work with the business to try and think what are your pressure points? What are your challenges? Business often doesn't know what it needs from HR. What you are is a translator and also an ideator. I think that's the word we call an ideas person. An ideator of what is possible and then you've got to build the trust and confidence of the business to go on a journey with you and that requires you to have a lot of credibility and influencing skills.

Tanya: Good story Jacqui about the importance as you highlighted earlier around your vision for HR as well not just at the ATO but more broadly. I'm interested how do you demonstrate then the value of the HR function now? Looking back, what's this story and what do you know that you've been successful with that transformation?

Jacqui: There were several things. You asked me about the early days when I first started at the Tax office I'd go along to these meetings and I'd be the HR person, there would be the communications person, but everybody else in the room would be business, and they'd be presenting on something you know might be a new initiative around superannuation or some kind of GST taxation thing and usually your corporate people in particular HR they won't ask any questions about that issue or that part of the business. They wait to be asked, what can we do or how many people do we need? But I would always speak up and ask questions and challenge on things that they said etcetera, even if it wasn't in the HR space. That curiosity then allows you to understand the environment and the challenges and the opportunities that are there in the business, and that then starts you thinking about OK, what could we do? The next thing is actually to show you can get a result. So all the talk and planning and best will in the world strategies is not going to get people on board. We chose to try and deliver in either areas that were particularly "old head of pin" as Peter Shergold used to call a wicked problem. We'd look at some thing, there is a really wicked problem here, let's put all our effort and energy into fixing that or trying to solve that, to demonstrate that we truly can make a difference.

And the one that I'll call out as an example is for years we'd had a massive ComCare premium in the ATO, $50 million just in our insurance premium for our staff. And coupled with that was unplanned leave. That was, I think, the second highest department in the service, about 16 days per year on average per person for 23,000 workforce. Lots of people had admired the problem and tried to pick off bits of it. But we put a great deal of energy, and effort and focus purposely on trying to do something about that, and bought all our expertise to bear looking at it, from all different angles. The reduction in the Comcare premium went from $50 million to less than $3 million this year, so that's over a period of seven years. But what that means is, and this is where you can really hit home as an HR person and many people don't, but you've got to take it the extra step when you're making your case or your pitch to the business and talking about results. 50 million to three million, that equates to $47 million going back into the business. That's $47 million more than the business could spend on their priorities. That's a very powerful figure.

And similarly with unplanned leave, that was another one we picked off early to try and make a case for the value of HR, went from 16.5 days to 13.3 days. Now it might not seem very much reduction, but if you then translate that into the number of extra people the business could have or the extra days of productivity that they're getting, all of a sudden the people in the business start to think aah that's really worthwhile. And that makes a huge difference, it is very powerful. I use evidence, but I also use the language of the business to not only explain what we're doing and why, but then demonstrate how effective it can be. And that's where I think we need to as a profession, start to focus more on the business lens and the business acumen that resonates with people who are working at the front line.

Tanya: Thanks, Jacqui, I think that's a nice segway into an area I've wanted to explore with you around the paradox that we often live in, in HR. Where on the one hand, we're asked to be innovative, experimental, have personal courage, be adaptive and the list goes on. But sometimes we find ourselves working in an environment where this is merely an espoused expectation and really not valued or rewarded. That's perhaps slightly controversial, but I know a lot of HR practitioners experience that. What's your advice to our listeners who work in this paradox and how best to navigate this challenge?

Jacqui: Interesting one. I would say It doesn't really matter where you work. Sometimes you feel that you're being taken for granted and undervalued. There are times that HR people do feel like that. I would say corporate people in general often feel that way, they think wow here we are, one minute we're called the back office and I think language is so important. Tanya, often I'll be in meetings and I still hear some of my colleagues talk about the back office functions, and I get quite irate because I say there is no such thing, even as a back office, and most people don't even have offices, so get with the programme. You've gotta have the courage to call those things out. I think that one of the biggest challenges for people in the HR profession and corporate more generally is we don't sell ourselves enough. We don't talk about our success. We don't celebrate our success, we’re quite happy to take a back seat a lot of the time and that's okay, you can be more distant, humble, and that works for lots of people. But as a profession, we need to sort of bandy together a bit more and talk about our successes and explain to people what it is that we do and how we add value. And, you can do that at so many levels. I've talked previously about doing at the business level, but you can also do it at the emotional level and tap into people's hearts. Really, I think that's also very effective and often will use stories about how HR interventions may have personally impacted on an individual or a team and brought around a significant change for the better for those people. And I think you've got to be a powerful storyteller if you want people to notice what you're doing and value you, I think you've gotta have the courage to actually go to the table. Whether it be an executive table, whether it be business meeting or team meeting on the ground, it doesn't matter where it is stand up for your profession and be proud of the profession that you're in. That's what other professional streams do. That's what we see all the time. I wouldn't want to pick on lawyers, but they're great at that. I'm a lawyer. I'm a doctor. Well, I'd love HR professionals to lead with I'm an HR professional. I'm a human resources expert. Whatever you want to call yourself Chief People Officer, everything. Be proud of it!

Tanya: But what happens though if the manager that you're working to doesn't seem to embrace your ideas? I think if you are brave and you can go with those ideas, however I guess in your professional career, you have probably come across people that, on the one hand they want you to do something, you do it. But then you've done it and you come to them and they don't embrace your work.

Jacqui: As I said, you've got to use your evidence. You've got to use all the facts and information. Everybody has different styles. I mean one of the things that I learned early in my career is to try and work out the style of the person that you're talking to. To find a way to interact and influence and get your messages across and to get them to buy into what you do. With some people that's presenting data and information and numbers because they're analytical people, with some people is tapping into the heart strings. There are going to be people that they won't value you until they're absolutely desperate. They need you. They've got a people crisis on their hand, you know, maybe a person they're in conflict with or underperformer. Or maybe something has gone wrong in the workplace. And then they will call on you, and that's when you've got to be ready to just deliver. And I think it's the same with most professions. Not everybody is going to embrace you, so you just have to kind of live with that, most people these days recognise the value of what we're doing. I think that's only going to increase as we move forward and we become even more, not just expert in our/ the technical elements of HR, but if we can start to be a bit more future focused and a little bit more strategic in thinking about what are the shifts in the ways people will work, in the types of workforces we will need etcetera to prepare business lines and organisations for that change. I think that's the space we need to start to move towards, playing in that space, more than just holding on to what we know we're good at which is the foundational elements of HR. And some of the things we can do there Tanya is to embrace some of the new ways of working and concepts and techniques that are being used more broadly in business.

Just give you a little example about data and analytics. I was talking to our integrity advisor just this week, and we were talking about how do you use your data available to you and all your indicators that are people indicators to try and identify where you might have issues or hot sports or challenges in the culture of the organisation that are holding you back and creating resistance so you can't move forward on? And one of the things we were talking about is you can gather all different data sets so you could look at unplanned leave, you could look at code of conduct cases for example, you could look at engagement surveys. You can even look at things like how many people are doing mandatory training, et cetera, et cetera, And you can start to pull that together and if you've got good analytical capability start to build a picture for a manager of that says to them you have got some challenges, you're getting really big high complaints on this part of the business and you can actually draw a link between what's happening in the workforce and the complaints that you might be getting from customers and pinpoint for them where their problem is. And that's a really practical and useful tool for managers because then they can put their efforts into addressing where the problem is rather than just a broad brush approach. And another example, design thinking or you might have heard nudge theory where you're trying to sort of use insights into people's behaviour, to try and then work that into the initiatives and the approaches that you use in HR to get a change of behaviour in the workplace.

I talked a little bit about unplanned leave. We have very successfully used behavioural insights and the knowledge of how people think to inform our communication strategy around taking leave. So in Australia the thing that I realised when I came to Australia, the sickie the Australian sickie. We've now got some tools, posters for example. We have in the bathrooms and kitchen areas communal areas posters to show you here's Tanya, she's just been diagnosed with cancer or whatever, she's just used 340 days of accrued sick leave. That was her insurance premium for the future. So we're pitching in a way that sort of resonates with people and taps into those behavioural insights and similarly, we produce the managers a calendar of an individual's leave, whether it be sick leave, annual leave, there's all different types of leave you can have, study leave and present it to them, and we send it to their staff member and say, if it's a high user, we will say something along the lines of you know, Tanya, you've used 14.2 days this month on all these different types of leave, your colleagues or your counterparts on average use four days. And we actually have a picture of what the days are and how many days of actual work availability there is to that person and that's a tool that managers can sit down and have a proper conversation. And that leave may be totally valid. It's not a gotcha moment it, but it's a tool to start a conversation. And at the crux of all really good leadership and management is the ability to have a two-way conversation with a person and understand what it is that you are exploring together and how you might move forward on it. So it's a very useful tool and it picks up on design thinking and behavioural insights.

Tanya: It's good to explore that further with you Jacqui, because you mentioned earlier your vision for the HR profession is for us to be seen on the same terms as the legal profession, marketing profession where people who are performing that role know what they're doing and they have the capabilities and the credentials to do so. I'd be curious in a little bit more detail around what you see is the key skills in this VUCA world? The different capabilities you've mentioned design thinking, you've mentioned behavioural economics, and that evidence is key. But what are your thoughts in relation to the key capabilities that HR practitioners are going to need for the future? And, I guess, some advice for our listeners about how you develop them?

Jacqui: Right in the middle of the pandemic there is a huge focus on work health and safety, but that that is ever present, top of mind challenge. And I remember at DHS Catherine Campbell running that mammoth, I think she had 32,000 people, always used to say my absolute number one priority is the health and wellbeing of my people. And I think in today's world I mean it's always been important, but it's very, very complex as we're seeing now, really strong capability in some of those foundational elements of HR IS critical and we have in some places, not just in the APS, but in some organisations also, lost some skills in particular around industrial relations. Industrial relations is an ever present part of Human Resources, and it waxes and wanes a bit, depending on what's going on in the environment and the strength of unions and where people are positioned. But I think there is, there's certainly some gaps there. For the future I suppose I've talked about data and evidence and some of the sort of more futuristic skills we definitely have to look at HR policy. Policy in the way in which you write policy is so important to underpinning the outcomes that we get and the other thing I'd say about policy is if you're espousing values in an organisation, for example, like trust and confidence and you want to empower people, your policies need to reflect that because if there is a disconnect between what the policy says, so if you've got a policy, there's sort of prescriptive and says you'll do this and do this and do this, which is what the ATO had when I got here, it doesn't connect or align with what you stand for in your culture and your values. So this policy piece is very important and people who are good at writing clever policy in HR are going to be really critical to our future.  And linked to that is strategy, I've already sort of touched on it a bit. It's not just HR strategy. It's not just what's our strategy around performance management or learning development or talent or acquisition, it is actually about thinking about what's the strategy for the organisation thinking beyond just your own organisation. But what's happening broadly looking at future trends, looking at what's happening in the business environment, and community, etcetera, people's expectations are changing. For example, at the moment around new ways of working remote working, working from home, the people who are running the organisation will be expecting HR professionals not only to be ready when they go to them and say, well, what will I do about working from home, but actually to have been thinking about that way in advance of the question ever arising and, saying look, everything's changing community expectations, standards, etcetera. This is how we need to build this into our business strategy in order to be able to deliver for the future. And in fact, as I said earlier, sometimes what's happening in the HR world in the people world can actually guide to the business in developing their strategy because it opens up opportunities to them. So new capabilities are coming through from example with our digital natives, young people who are super good on digital. If you can harness that skill and capability in workforce and build it, that enables the business to actually do some incredibly different things at the front end, and that's what you've got to do. So strategy, policy data, some of these new sort of capabilities around design thinking, behavioural economics and really good expertise on the foundations, like industrial relations and of course, the other one is workforce planning, really big.

Tanya: Thank you for that insight. One of the questions I've been asking all of the folk we've been interviewing is do you have any kind of authors or individuals that influence you and that help you maintain awareness of trends in the future of role of HR.

Jacqui: I don't have anybody in particular that I would want to call out. I guess I'm a person, just one of those people, who goes around sucking up everything around me. I've been very fortunate over the course of my career, particularly in the public service, to have done quite a lot of work with ANZSOG and some of their key people, like Professor Porter Heart and Robin Ride, Robbie McPherson in that space. And I think they have fantastic ideas and they've always been a little bit ahead of the pack. When it comes to what might be around the I love reading all of the sort of research materials that come out of organisations like some of the Big 4, BCG Deloitte, McKinsey's. They are always putting out future focused and very, very in-depth pieces of research, and it's publicly available. There's no one in particular. I'm reading a book at the moment called Quiet, which is all about introverts, and I'm not going to be able to remember the author's name. But it's a fabulous book all about how we've become a society that values that really extroverted leadership and those loud voices. They're the ones that we get drawn to and get behind. This is all about why we should listen to quieter people labelled them introverts. But it's not just introverts, it is a quieter approach and the importance of that. So I'm always looking for things like that, I guess, inform my thinking and challenge my perspective, which is what I think you always need to.

Tanya: And yes I think that's really healthy. In concluding today in our discussion, one key take away that you would share with our listeners when thinking about the future role of HR and how we can best evolve ourselves to be effective in that future. What would it be?

Jacqui: Back ourselves, have confidence in ourselves. Don't apologise for our profession. We are really strong. We've got some amazing expertise, and I think the Covid pandemic has just brought that right to the forefront and shown how much depth of expertise there is in the HR profession. I think we need to shine a light on that and put ourselves in the spotlight and be confident in doing so. That'd be my one takeaway.

Tanya: Fantastic, thanks Jacqui, and thank you so much for your insights today.